the localvores' thread [General]

2009 May 14
OK, here is what I can dig up in just a few minutes sifting through old emails (gawd bless gmail - search it, don't sort it). Please add to the list folks - both meat and veggies.

Some of these I've dealt with to varying degrees, some I have not but I have friends who do. I won't provide many details - if you want specifics on how they raise their food, contact them and ask them. The ones I deal with vary but all are better than mass-produced factory stuff.

www.saffirefarms.ca - CSA for veggies. Beef in smaller to medium quantities

Frank - 613-257-2489 - Beef, Pork in quarter-sizes (quarter of an animal), and can source chicken, turkey and lamb at no extra cost if you order his beef and pork. His daughter has now taken over but he still helps out.

Beckwith Berries on hwy 7 will sell "day old" strawberries for $7 instead of the regular price of $12 per basket (4 litres) 613-253-4171

Carleton Place Farmer's Market for chicken.

Any local muslim grocer for chicken and beef. They really vary from place to place so you have to ask questions. Could be mass-produced, or could be the best local meat you'll ever buy. And often at extremely good prices close to Costco. Smaller quanities

Robert Campbell in Ashton for Pork - 613-257-5827 ot 613-257-9060
Reg Campbell in Ashton for Beef. I think but am not sure that this is the guy who has a little store out there. 613-257-7524. Both do sides only IIRC

I'm not telling you the name of my honey guy because he already runs out at times :-) But his honey is cheaper than Costco and way better

You can find out an awful lot just by asking around. Many of the above I found just by asking friends and coworkers. Any one of the above will be able to give you a bigger list, too.

So folks, please add more for meat and veggies alike.

EDIT :

another popular CSA for veggies www.brysonfarms.ca/

www.mountainpath.com/ - lots of goods (staples) in their catalog that are from various places in Ontario

Ottawa Organics

Life Organic

2009 May 15
zymurgist great thread! We are lucky in Eastern Ontario having access to so many local products. Some of my favourites are:

Beef and chicken I purchase from Padgeberry Farms at the Organic Farmers Market in Ottawa South. I purchase game meats from the Elk Ranch and Bearbrook Farms at the Lansdowne Farmers Market. I purchased a really awesome paté from the Piggy Market at the end of last season and I look forward to doing more business with them at the market and also at their new store in Westboro.

Dairy I get my milk and yogurt also from Padgeberry.

Honey I get mine from Heavenly Honey when I can find them. Last year they had a stall set up at the Great Glebe Garage sale of all places - that's how I found out about them - and I really enjoy their honey.

Eggs Definitely Bekings Farms.

Veggies Any of the stands at the Organic Farmers Market in Ottawa South or Lansdowne although my favourite vendors are La Ferme Rosée, Bryson Farms, and Le Coprin. (Okay the last one sells just mushrooms but I could eat them 24/7-:)

Bread Art-is-In and the Ethopian man at Lansdowne/Ottawa South markets are definitely my favourites. But I also like the Portuguese Bakery, the Trillium Bakery, the French Baker, and Rideau Bakery.

I get most of my legumes (as well as most of my pantry items) at Market Organics. Although I often shop at the ethnic markets if I am in the neighbourhood like the Mid-East Food Centre and Al Kalaa.

2009 May 15
for everyday cheddars, i also like forfar and often bike from the cottage to the dairy itself in the summer for cheap ice cream cones and cheese curd. balderson also has $1 ice cream cones and is worth a detour if you are driving down hwy 7 anyway.

i really like the back40 cheeses. they can often be found at nicastro's and la bottega. if you are in perth, stop at food smith's for the best selection.
www.artisancheese.ca/

i love the veggie variety that acorn creek provides, so many hot peppers and sweet pepper varieties, plus they have a range okra, which my husband and father-in-law love. other veggies i buy directly from a farmer near the cottage.

2009 May 15
Golden Turtle, I would appreciate it (as I am sure would others) if you included a bit of information about the link to introduce it, ie. "Ms. McGarrigle's Mustard: link.com/html" It makes the post a bit more readible and that way your online research efforts don't go to waste :)

As for locavority, I think this is something that I strive to do more, and I really appreciate this thread. For me, it comes down to what I can produce (vegetable garden) and what I can get for cheap (locally-made bread, with local grains; other vegetables; eggs and milk). Bekings Farms are without a doubt my favourite egg supplier, and I will wait on baking things or making omlettes to get said eggs.

Otherwise, like I said, I'm looking forward to exploring some of the other suppliers in the region.

2009 May 15
Dude,

I'm not here to meet your personal needs for a condensed executive summary; that is a deep link right into their "about us."

If that isn't enough or Merrickville isn't close enough for your definition of local, I guess that's a personal problem you need to overcome.

2009 May 15
Turtle> You need to turn down the suck knob a notch buddy! Try not to be so defencive about a request. LWB has a good point, if you post a link, a little extra info is always nice. Otherwise your posts read like billboard on the hwy. :)

2009 May 15
DB - Don't you know? He's too busy with my mom and sniffing his own farts to give us more detail!

2009 May 16
I'm just sticking the word localvore into the body here since the site search does not search on subject

2009 May 17
www.ottawatourism.ca

Savour ottawa is an amazing group of farmers, restaurant owners and chefs. Go to the members page and you will see a whole list of farms. Also go to the restaurant, catering, ect page and you will see a list of restaurant who use savour ottawa farms (must purchase 15% from local farms to make the list or $25000 annually)

2009 May 18
it takes twenty seconds to click on a link and decide if it's worth reading further than where you land and my response to her was entirely dictated by her black belt level suck PMs on a side topic. But yeah thanks in the time it took you to write that you could have checked out all three.

2009 Aug 24
I've just placed an order with Reford Beed in Alymer. They are local and grass fed - www.refordbeef.ca/index.html.

2009 Aug 24
Completely off-topic: I so very missed the part where GT:RIP referred to my PM (about his link-use) as being black-belt level suck.

I suck really well, it seems. Heh.

2009 Aug 24
LWB - LOL, too funny... wish I had found this topic when we were talking last about "blind links" GT:RIPs first posting in this topic of May 15th, is an excellent example of a link that tells the reader nothing... I have no idea at first glance on what info he is providing... or where in cyberspace I am off to (important sometimes when people are browsing at work etc). You are right, how hard would it have been to say:

Mrs McGarrigles Mustard = www.mustard.ca
or
Mrs McGarrigles Mustard = Mrs McGarrigle's

Afterall he knew that info before posting the link.

Then I as a reader know whether I need to check that out (if not familiar with the Vendor) or not (as is my case... very familiar with the Vendor).

2009 Aug 25
I found the link for the Ottawa Regional Organic Food Directory (www.cog.ca/ottawa/ottlist.htm) - and from there I have contacted a local organic grower about Chicken and Turkeys.

Does anyone know if $4.50 a pound for local chicken or turkey is a good price? Or should I keep shopping around...

2009 Sep 8
For anyone interested in a great little program that always tries to include local produce when available. www.centretownchc.org

2009 Sep 8
You can get organic beef from Maurice Amyot, near the Nakkertok ski area in Gatineau. It's only about 20 min from downtown. You can pick your animal or just put your name on the list for a share. If you don't have anyone to share a whole animal with (about 500 lbs prepared cuts) Maurice can match you up with others. Before I became mostly vegetarian we bought meat there. It's very tasty, though a bit tougher than non-organic beef. His contact information from Canada411:

Amyot Maurice
819-568-0735
359 ch de Bellechasse
Gatineau, QC J8V 3Y4


2009 Nov 24
I'm adding these guys to the list - Upper Canada Heritage Meat

www.uppercanadaheritagemeat.ca

I've been cooresponding with them and am seriously considering trying them out

2009 Nov 25
Ive been buying off uppercanada for 2 years now. Good pork....and now shes got chickens, beef and ducks!

2010 Feb 10
Just adding this useful link

www.cog.ca

EDIT : oh, I see this link above. But I'll keep it anyway just to bump this thread :-)

2010 Feb 10
Adding raw milk

Conavista Farm
milkorders(at)sympatico(dot)ca
613-658-5876

And this one just mentioned in the grass fed thread

www.dobsonfarm.com

2010 Feb 11
Greener Green Acres CSA

www.freewebs.com/ggreenacres/

Lots of good stuff there.

2010 Feb 15
Verbatim from www.ottawafoodies.com (quoting someone else) :

There is a farmer on the Quebec side, near the Nakkertok X-Country Ski Club trails, about 15-20 minutes from downtown. He speaks English. His beef is grass fed, organic.

Amyot Maurice
819-568-0735
359 ch de Bellechasse
Gatineau, QC J8V 3Y4

2010 Feb 18
Just adding this from the other thread

www.totallynaturalbeef.ca/

2010 Feb 18
Thanks Zym.

I'll add a little bio. They are family run farm (13 kids!) close to Douglas, Ontario. I've had the pleasure of having a ho-down in their barn. The beef is pasture fed all year until the winter when they are fed a diet of hay (also from the farm). They are not certified organic. They also speak English :)

2010 Feb 18
I also have had contact with this farm/family. I can only praise,wish I could have been for the ho-down' cause in addition to great food they are lovers of music, dancing and learning...far as I can see...

2010 Mar 3
Just saw this farm posted elsewhere and am adding it to the list.

www.saveursdesmonts.ca/

Ferme aux Saveurs des Monts.

2010 Mar 3
Just picked this one up from Ron Eades

O'Brien Farms in Winchester

www.obrienfarms.ca/

2010 Mar 3
Dobson's Farm

www.dobsonfarm.com

2010 Mar 3
Thank you Zym for all your input...sure makes it easier to find things, when it is all posted. (in the summer I love Dobson's and all the other vendor's at Carp Farmer's Market--I do live in West Carleton). Tx again.

2010 Mar 3
Don't worry, every time I find a new place i'll add it here. It is afterall in my own best interest too :-) I hope more people will keep adding to it as well because certainly there are a lot more local farms than what are already in this list.

Enjoy!

2010 Mar 3
Another local source for organic farm product is Debbie DeCooman's Connaught Acres farm near Chesterville, east of Winchester, and south east of Ottawa (maybe 1/2 hour drive from South Keys?). She sells at the organic market behind Canadian Tire on Bank as well as doing CSA's and farm sales of a lot of things - see her website at www.connaughtacres.ca/ - she has "Organic Chicken, Tamworth Pork, Muscovy Ducks, Organic Lamb, Meat Goats, as well as Organic Vegetables, Organic Salads, Organic Fruits, Herbs, Spices, Seeds, Juices, Sauce." She's a member of Savour Ottawa, the COG (Canadian Organic Growers), EFAO, and the NFU.

Debbie DeCooman
13621 Connaught Road RR3
Chesterville, Ontario
K0C 1H0
613-448-3540

2010 Mar 3
Deer and wine can be bought down the road from Connaught Acres at Domain du Cervin - see www.domaineducervin.com/ - click on the link to the English Site if needed.

Apples and Strawberries as well as local food products (jams, pies, etc) can be found at Cannamore Orchards: www.cannamoreorchard.com/. They are also home to the Spooky Wagon Ride in October - www.spookywagonride.com/ - my kids (and I) used to be involved in it, providing volunteer manpower, as it was the major fundraiser for their high school band - I believe a second school is now also involved.

Apples, pies and crisps, cider donuts, and local honey can be found at Mountian Orchards: www.cannamoreorchard.com/. They also have another business (their major business now) at the same location, manufacturing and selling beautiful wood moulding that we have used in 2 houses and can highly recommend: www.mountainorchards.ca

2010 Mar 3
Tx Andy,
Will definitely be checking out these sites.Tx again!

2010 Mar 4
You are welcome W.C.

Correction to Mountain Orchards websites:

Mountain Orchards: www.mountainorchards.ca
Mountain Mouldings: www.mountainmoulding.com/

2010 Mar 4
An interesting feature in today's Ottawa Citizen (March 4) on Castor River Farm.

They are the folks that sell grains grown on their farm at the Lansdowne Market: oats, wheat, rye, spelt, buckwheat, barley and freshly ground flours.

The article states that they've just opened a store on their farm. They have their grains, honey, and tea available currently, and by mid-summer, will "have vegetables, garlic, chicken, pork, beef, eggs and buckwheat honey".

Store hours: Sundays & Wednesdays, noon - 8 pm.

No website listed, but email: castorriverfarm@xplornet.ca; phone: 613-821-0807; address: 2696 9th Line Road, Metcalfe.

I see a roadtrip in my future!!


2010 Mar 4
A woman I work with was telling me about buying grains at that place

2010 Mar 6
Another one just culled from another thread

www.fortunefarms.ca/

2010 Mar 17
Not exactly immediately local but I think they do door-to-door delivery to Ottawa

www.wendysmobilemarket.com

2010 Mar 17
^ I don't think they deliver to Ottawa, I checked out their delivery zones... too bad, because they offer a lot of farmed produce from where my parents live.

2010 Mar 17
Hi,

One farm/vendor I haven't seen mentioned (either here or in the vendors) is Black Farms. They sell local all natural lamb and chicken. They sell from the farm and they also sell lamb as members of Natural Lamb (www.naturallamb.ca).

I'm not a lamb eater but buy their chicken. Last year I picked up a couple to try and was pleased enough to head back and pick up another eight for the freezer (I vacuum seal them so they stay fresh for 6 - 9 months in the deep freezer). Their farm is on Fallowfield Rd. in Stittsville. They can be reached at 613-831-2642. They don't have a website.

Called to place another order today. They will be getting new chicks in the next few weeks so it'll be a bit before you can pick them up.

Just thought I'd throw the info out in case anyone wants to try another vendor.


2010 Mar 24
eardley vegetable patch.....

www.potagereardley.com


2010 Mar 24
Speaking of "Vegetable Patch", there is this guy who will plant a garden in your yard and do all of the work, and you get some of the veggies of course

vegetablepatch.ca/

2010 Apr 13
Any other sources of farm fresh eggs? I just got this email from a friend with one location :

The one I got mine from is on fallowfield road. If coming from in town (416) when you get to Karter's Corners Go Karts (Fallowfield and Huntley Rd.), there will be a stop sign. If you keep going on Fallowfield for another 1-2 minutes there is a farm on the left hand side, they sometimes have a ton of sheep in the field by the road. I don't know the exact address, they charge $3/dozen and the eggs were at least as large as what you'd get in the grocery store.

2010 Apr 13
On Dwyer Hill Rd between Copeland and Franktown there is a farm you can drive up to and buy various products - meat and eggs at least as I recall, but I'll try to get out there and then post a definitive update.

2010 Apr 13
Reg Campbell (sides of beef) 613-257-7524
Robert Campbell (sides of pork) 613-257-5827 or 613-257-9060
Arlee & Diane Sheets (chicken, pork, maple syrup) 613-256-6117

2010 Apr 13
zymurgist,

Given your earlier directions to the place on Fallowfield for fresh eggs, it appears your friend was referencing Black's Farm (which I posted about earlier).

Address info for those interested is: 6588 Fallowfield Rd., Stittsville. Phone: 613-831-2642

FYI

2010 Apr 26
Hobbs Family Farm in Ashton.

See this thread for details : Forum - Hobbs Family Farm

2010 May 27
zymurgist,

in regards to wendy's mobile market..some of the non-meat stuff seems expensive. but how would you compare the meat prices compared to regular retail shops?

2010 May 27
I have no idea, since I have never dealt with them. This thread is just an ever-growing list of local food vendors, not necessarily people I or anyone else has ever dealt with.

And as for discussing prices and so on I'd rather do that in a different thread otherwise it will decrease the usefulness of this one (diminish the original intent of it)

2010 Jul 15
Found another CSA

www.rootsdown.ca/

2010 Jul 15
Roots Down also has a stall at the Main Street farmers market on Saturdays and the Lansdowne Farmers market on Sundays. (BTW their pea shoots and salad mix are delicious!) I didn't realize they were a CSA - thanks for sharing zym.

2010 Aug 14
The link above to www.refordbeef.ca/ does not work - the "index.html" on the end is no longer valid. But my link here should be fine.

2010 Sep 7
Check out ottawa.golocavore.ca... just starting to sign up producers and markets. Encourage your favourites to check it out and get listed.

2010 Sep 7
I would like to give a nod to The Piggy Market (mentioned briefly earlier) as well. Their raison d'etre is to provide local products and have a wide selection available from eggs, milk, cheese, meat, bread, condiments, coffee, flour, ice cream and more...they also do prepared artisanal foods. Located in Westboro.

www.thepiggymarket.com

2010 Sep 8
Anyone pursuing the locavore lifestyle should be sure to maintain a balanced view by reading contrary articles such as this one: www.forbes.com

The fact is, although local is usually a better choice it is not always the best choice. This is especially true for meat.

Personally, I value the following traits in my food, in order of decreasing desirability:
* Fresh and of high quality
* Socially and environmentally ethical
* In season (i.e. non greenhouse)
* Organic
* Local
* Cheap

...and cheap is only below local within a reasonable realm. ;-)

When food is local, it is easier to get to know the producer personally and to find out if the methods of production are in line with your values. But, if you don't bother finding out about your local supplier, then you might be better off buying from a more distant producer about whom you can more easily find information.

Products are not automatically better solely because they are local.

2010 Sep 8
I agree with you FF but I'd add one other factor on top of it all - CULTURE. There often is no real economic argument for it, but I'm jealous of the rabid regionalism I see in parts of Europe. I'd like it if Ontarian's turned their noses up at any peach that didn't come from Niagara in August (after this summer, who wouldn't?).

Some may see that as a bit backwards, and I can appreciate that. But for me, I'd like it if we are bit more chauvinistic with respect to what we ate.

2010 Sep 8
Why is it especially true with meat? I don't understand. I find precisely the opposite.

2010 Sep 8
Zym, because frozen and cured meats travel well. They taste good that way, whereas preserved produce is nowhere near as nice as fresh. Long distance produce is often harvested in an unripe state and then ripened artificially when ready to sell. It's generally much better to buy local and in season in that case!

Fish is an even more extreme example. A cod caught in the Gaspésie and shipped to Ottawa overnight is going to be less fresh than one caught in the significantly more distant Baltic Sea, frozen aboard the fishing vessel, and then transported here by train, ship, and truck over several weeks. When you live as far from the ocean as we do, frozen is more fresh than "fresh."

2010 Sep 8
FreshFoodie's comments about meat makes sense given his list of priorities. If you are very concerned with environment/mileage, shipping food in from out-of-town (especially when good meat is easily available locally)is not ideal. But as FF said, local meat does not necessarily mean good quality/ethical/healthy (although I think in our area it often does).

That said, as much as I'd like to eat localvore, we live in Canada! I for one cannot subsist on potatoes for 6 months of the year, and I do crave a bit of fresh fruit and veg to supplement the frozen variety.

Personally, having food certified organic is my lowest priority, mostly from a financial perspective. I want to avoid factory farms, but when organic milk costs literally twice what regular milk does, I just can't justify it. I love the cog.ca website, but I wish there was more info on local, ethical, small farms that don't necessarily go through the organic certification process.

One site I found for local beef that is antibiotic/hormone free:
www.fitzroybeeffarmers.com

I need to do more research about the specific farms in the collective, but it's a start.

2010 Sep 9
Its a really good article - both from an ethical perspective (NA farmers - especially in the state RE:corn) love to dump in other countries, at the expense of the local market. On top of that the locovore trend blocks/dissuades purchasers to buy from those same markets (see the beans comment in the article). Also interesting note on the lower carbon footprint of bringing NZ lamb flown into UK vs local UK lamb. Again not sure if it would apply to Canada - more interesting to me anyway is the complexity of choice. Simple arguments don't always prove out.

Having said that, I'm really enjoying my Niagara fruits, along with some Argentina olives.

2010 Oct 1
I'm stealing this from the other thread just now and quoting someone else :

"There is also a food co-op in hull (you take the 8 bus to get there from rideau) and they have farmers that sell beef,chicken ect all year round. there is no minimum order and you just place a weekly order online and pick it up later the next week. "

marcheoutaouais.com

2010 Oct 3
I just joined the Marche Outaouais- there is a $20 yearly member fee
+ 15% added to each bill for the co-op fees.
still, it is year round and good.

-now as for eating locally, that is good
But I really do not think you can get any locally grown green or black tea (that is usually from India,China,japan).

I actually order some Chinese teas that are from Yunnan china and handmade.
The person I buy them from actually lives there and he even goes to some smaller villages to pick up different kinds of teas.
you probably won't find most of what he sells at tea shops around here.

pu-erhtea.com/

2010 Nov 20
I just stumbled upon Grazing Days Beef CSA

www.grazingdays.com

2010 Nov 20
I'd like to get some beef from Grazing Days to try. I've heard good things about the quality.

2010 Dec 5
Depending on how far you consider local, this site lists quite a few places in Ontario and Quebec:

www.agritourismguide.ca/

2010 Dec 6
The link above did not work but this one does agritourismguide.ca/

2010 Dec 8
Ashton Glen Farm

ashtonglenfarm.ca/

2011 Apr 18
ourfarmcsa.ca/

Poultry - not sure what else at this point.

2011 Jun 14
Pork of Yore www.porkofyore.com
You can find their meat at the Ottawa Valley Food Co-operative, the Carp Farmers market and at the Farm Gate (call ahead).

Dobson's Farm Grass Fed Beef
www.dobsonfarm.com
Available every Saturday from 8am to 1pm at the Carp Farmers Market.

The Elk Ranch
www.elkranch.com

BearBrook Game Meats
www.bearbrookfarm.com

2011 Jun 14
May be too late to get in on the weekly boxes, but they sell at various locations: www.riverglenfarm.ca/

2011 Jun 14
Bought some from totallynaturalbeef.ca/ last year. Nice guy, good meat. I like the O'Brien farm as well. The wild board guy at the ottawa farmer's market is great (from Vankleek hill I think)

For produce, I buy everything I can from the Acorn Creek Farm

2011 Aug 11
Wow, looks like the Muslims who bought the place in Pakenham are turning the place into my dream shop. Well, except for the fact they don't do pork anymore :-)

www.mrbeefstore.com/

Kudos to them!

Fresh foodie, it looks like Organic Girl's post above from Dec 5 has opened a boldface tag that needs to be closed.

Let me see if I can close it here **

How does this look now?

2011 Aug 11
Haha.. thanks for pointing that out, zymurgist. My approach isn't quite so brain-dead that you can close the boldface tag elsewhere. ;-) The regular expressions just got messed up because there were asterisks around a URL and the closing boldface instruction was "eaten" by the URL regex.

Anyway, I removed the asterisks now. Problem solved.

2011 Aug 15
New to the Scene is Seed to Sausage in Sharbot Lake. It's a bit of a drive... ok, if bloody far away. However, The are one of two legally licensed establishments in Ontario that can make artisanal charcuterie... and it is Fantastic! try it at Murray's Market, then take a drive out to see how it's made. www.seedtosausage.ca

2011 Aug 22
The folks who own www.capitalwarmbloods.com/ have a food farm called Winfield’s Farm. Right now chicken, lamb and Angus beef, with thoughts of expanding into Wagyu

2011 Sep 7
Oh wow, sounds like i have to go check this place out - smoked local meats!

B&H Your Community Grocer

2011 Sep 7
Zy I was at B&H about a week ago, and they had more of the meat pies, cornish pasties, pork faggots (?) all at bargain prices. Also love their housemade "trainwreck" beans which are really more like chili dog topping. They have a number of housemade convenience foods too (lasagna etc.) and a small table of local produce at the entrance. B&H is a short hope from the 416 if you are enroute to Ogdensburg or the 401.

2012 Jun 11
smoker guy this is the thread you were looking for

Quote :
I'm sure there must already be a thread started on this subject but I couldn't find it. I have a buddy I'm posting for who raises grain fed hormone free beef. He just put another order in the freezer this week and I'm just putting the word out for him. All his meat is butchered , stamped and vac packed at rideau meats. Anyone looking for some great beef, lamb or chickens please call Anderson Farms at 613-838-6080. Rob and Brenda have a great setup going. They are located at the corner of franktown and Dwyer hill road. Oh yeah they have great eggs as well.

2012 Jun 11
Thanks zym, I searched all over the site and somehow missed this tread.

2012 Dec 11
Just bumping this from Forum - Grass fed beef

There is a huge list above and lots of places to get grass fed beef, but it will be pre frozen. Also check the map below which I posted recently in another thread

www.justfood.ca

2012 Dec 11
I wish there was a way to "sticky" threads like this that has lists of info.

2012 Dec 11
Your browser has a section for making bookmarks.
Make a few, put them in a separate folder. Done.

2013 Apr 23
bump.. Was looking for this thread and took a bit to find it.

Stuart S and I recently got some beef cheeks and flank steak from Andersen Farms and the flank steak was nice and might do the beef cheek this weekend now that I am home.

2013 Oct 22
Bump. :)

2013 Oct 22
Yes Mountain Path has great organic staples.
I get all my flours there for my sourdough bread etc.
Dry beans and seeds,live only about 30 min away.