Price gripes [General]

2013 Mar 3
[MOVED this discussion here from Art Is In Bakery.]

Sounds like the Ottawa shuffle is going on with another establishment living off their reputation. My last visit was great. Will try next weekend and see what is up. $14 for pancakes is a bit much kinda like $24 two piece fried chicken at Beer Brothers. Never ordered the pancakes is that two pankes or three for that price?

2013 Mar 3
Ken, 2 pancakes at 14 bucks, thanks very much. I will continue to do lunch there as long as the sandwiches remain quality and good value, as well as the pastries, bread, and coffee.

2013 Mar 4
Thanks, Bacon I.V.. You've given the Dragonlady and I a new measuring stick. I read your review to her and we've already begun to use the phrase "fourteen dollar pancakes" as shorthand to describe what is wrong with food pricing in the Ottawa foodie scene.

2013 Mar 4
Rizak, any time. I myself like Ken's $24 2-piece fried chicken.

2013 Mar 5
If $24 fried chicken and $14 pancakes seem high what about burgers in this city. Prices seem out of whack for what you get. Quality I get but $14 for two pancakes is there gold leaf added to the flour for visual effect or possibly the bad year for maple syrup last. Propane must be at an all time high for the prices charged for an average ground beef patty cooked wrong. Lets hope the food bubble bursts soon and Ottawa gets back to normal pricing.

2013 Mar 5
People in the hospitality industry are reporting that business is bad. I was wondering if prices were driving customers away or if there were other reasons? Have any of you cut back on your bar/restaurant spending? If so why?

2013 Mar 5
Just wondering if anyone of our restauranteurs can chime in on the formula for pricing in restaurants. If the food network is right multiply cost of the food by 3 and this gives you a profitable ratio.

2013 Mar 5
I would not expect there to be a formula. A restaurateur tries to maximize profit by aiming for overall quality and pricing that results in a full restaurant.

This will be radically different across businesses. Multiplying the cost of food by 3 is probably a good rule of thumb for planning purposes. But when it comes to running the business, the aim will be maximum profit rather than break-even profit and there's nothing wrong with that.

2013 Mar 5
I'm with you guys. From my view, as the 'good food trend' (for lack of a better term) has swept much of NAmerica over the last 5-10 years (also called 'culture' in the rest of the world) focus on quality of both ingredients and preparations has led to higher and higher prices - to a point of comedy occasionally:

organic romaine lettuce, Earthwatch sustainably sourced salt packed anchovies, free range Smithfields farm coddled agg, AOC Dijon mustard, fair trade olive oil, artisan worcestshire sauce, hand picked greek lemons, fancy bakery toasted geometrically perfect bread cubes, DOA Parmagiano Reggiano, hyper expensive butcher shop free range organic Mangalitsa bacon crisps .................. $24.

AKA: a three-bite Caeser salad.

I recognize the restaurant business is tough, and that high quality ingredients are expensive. I also agree with Fresh Foodie's comments that it is largely simply supply and demand. I am regularly quite surprised how much more reasonable I find dining in Montreal and (gasp) Toronto - but at the same time I still need reservations a few days in advance for any of the select better restaurants in Ottawa - and this hasn't changes since I moved here in 2007. In other words, the city is clearly supporting these changes...which I am not proposing is a bad thing.

However, I do occasionally ask myself, "Are people in Ottawa discerning enough in their tastes, or are we so starved for novelty and innovation that we will blindly and happily support any establishment that offers a slight increase in quality - regardless of price?

There is also a generational thing going on here. It is well documented that today's urbane 20-30 somethings are willing to drop serious coin in restos - $150+ for a dinner for two doesn't make many not-rich people blink. Meanwhile, I have anecdotally come to find that many baby boomers find anything over $15 a plate to be "really expensive".

Ironically, the things that a really good home cook can't do all that well (or easily) at home - dumplings, pho broth, french fries, chicken wings, kimchi, etc. are some of the cheapest things to eat out - so there is some comfort in that.

Otherwise, my take away for it all is - cooking well is the most valuable (literally $$) skill one can learn. When you go out, swallow your gripes, and seek out the atmosphere and the dishes you can't ever replicate at home. Good restos always have their place - I'm not sure you can cook someone dinner on a first date, that's way too intimate.....hahaha.

2013 Mar 5
We're not eating out as much for two reasons
1) Money - budget is TIGHT
2) Health reasons - we're trying to eat less processed food, again, as the budget allows.

Now I do know that there are places we could eat out and have a minimum of processed crud, like Cafe My House. But, the budgetary concerns override that.

Now that I'm back to working fulltime hours, our budget may ease up. But we still won't end up at any of the high-end places in Ottawa. For us, a good dinner out might be Lone Star for fajitas, or pho from Pho Bo Ga 3. And since we have a child, date nights are even fewer and far between, as we need a sitter on top of whatever other date costs there might be. So yeah, I guess budget is the biggest reason why we're eating out less.

2013 Mar 5
I try to eat out at lunch or I keep my prices down by eating at pub style place. I still have yet to try Gezellig (for example) but I plan to go at lunch when the entrees are under $20. I also picked up an entertainment book from Costco and am trying to stick to places that have coupons/discounts.

I'm becoming a lot pickier with my food dollars and I find prices are definitely increasing. I go to Lone Star frequently enough that I notice small changes in the menu and the service. They stopped bringing guacamole to the table without requesting it, for example. Then they increased their fajita prices twice over the past year... and, the latest, is that they now charge extra for steak where before it was the same price as chicken/shrimp.


2013 Mar 5
so on Art-is-in, I was there the other weekend and saw the $14 pancakes (extra if you want some fruit in them). They were big and looked tasty - but that is a ridiculous price. Having said that lots of people in Canada Goose jackets appeared to be enjoying their meals. I brought my nephew and we enjoyed coffees, a sticky bun, a chocolate/almond croissant, and a breakfast sandwich (~$5 for the sandwich, great deal) for around $20 total. So in this instance, I think Art-is-in is charging what they can, and people are more than willing to pay. On the otherhand there is still great value and excellent food to get there if you don't blindly follow the "goose" crowd.

2013 Mar 5
It should be easy to spend 50$ and get a good meal(or a good bottle of wine for that matter). The challenge is to get something comparable for 20$. Generally, good food is going to cost more than crap, but it's fun to find nice things that don't cost an arm and a leg. In fact that's something that this site is good for.
My #1 tip: go to the fine dining restaurants for lunch, not dinner. Prices will often be comparable to what you'd pay in a pub, and you probably won't spend as much on booze.
Some of you may have seen this:
www.theatlantic.com

Granted, not all of it is pertinent to little old Ottawa but . . . . . . . .
Perhaps we need a thread on best dining deals in town.

2013 Mar 5
There is a great Italian restaurant that I eat at every time I'm in Toronto, they have a family style menu option with 2-3 apps (calamari, caprese and another veggie type salad), followed by a pasta course with 3 types of pasta (veal lasagna, orrichiete and another type) and then your choice of a few meat courses (lamb shank, chicken, fish) served with a few veggie sides.

The food is all fresh and homemade by the owner who is from Italy and the food is cooked in the style of her region. Every person I've ever taken there has gone back, including my brother who lives in NYC.

Total cost, before taxes and tip is $27. It's maybe a 40 seat restaurant and its packed every time I go. There are probably 10 other restaurants within a 10 minute walk of it.

I say all this to point out that there is something seriously wrong with charging $14 for a couple of pancakes, and I think it's a competition issue. People want good food, and if there aren't allot of places serving it, you can charge through the nose for it.

2013 Mar 5
This discussion highlights a conundrum that is rooted somehow in economics. The idea of "food" seems to occupy multiple places in the mind, heart and ultimately, the stomach. This makes attaching value, and a price to it problematic, controversial and confusing.

If you think of eating solely as a means of satisfying hunger - hopefully with some associated nutritional benefits, you will be asked to attach a value and price to satisfying that need. If you subscribe to this ideology, then $14 pancakes are ridiculous.

If you extend your appreciation of eating towards the world of art and craft, incorporating the artistry and vision of the chef, scarce and optimal ingredients and the like, and even the peripheral dining experience, your price valuation of the experience is more willing to tolerate the notion of $14 pancakes.

Most of us lie somewhere on this continuum. Where exactly you lie is a function of your own food ideology. You can certainly find better value for money elsewhere though, on Art-is-in's or another menu than $14 pancakes - unless you REALLY like pancakes.

As for Art-is-in's prices in general though, they have always been a pet-peeve of mine. The tuna sandwich that was once $4.95 now goes for $9.95. Exact same sandwich, exact same lack of consistency. It was a bargain at $4.95, and probably not so at this point, but I keep buying it, so they win.

Art-is-in fascinates me in that while they produce some of the best bread and food in Ottawa, they swing so wildly from impeccable attention to detail, to an astonishingly laughable lack of attention-to-detail, and often during the same visit.

2013 Mar 5
Re: "If you extend your appreciation of eating towards the world of art and craft, incorporating the artistry and vision of the chef, scarce and optimal ingredients and the like, and even the peripheral dining experience, your price valuation of the experience is more willing to tolerate the notion of $14 pancakes. "

I make my kids happy face pancakes - time to up the price :) The chef's vision for pancakes "I see something round, possibly flat and griddled ..."

2013 Mar 5
"I am regularly quite surprised how much more reasonable I find dining in Montreal and (gasp) Toronto - but at the same time I still need reservations a few days in advance for any of the select better restaurants in Ottawa - and this hasn't changes since I moved here in 2007. In other words, the city is clearly supporting these changes...which I am not proposing is a bad thing."

Really? I find Ottawa horrible value for mid-range dining and, what should be, the lower end. You won't catch me in an Italian restaurant in the city, and I buy Chinese and Indian clutching my wallet pretty tightly. That said, I've always considered the high-end of Ottawa's scene great value. Maybe this is changing as the public service gets new blood in, but I always felt Ottawa restaurants had to price more aggressively to get bums in seats. I'm inevitably disappointed at value-for-money at any hot restaurant I go to in Toronto or Montreal.

Could there be a difference from area-to-area? Still find downtown dining reasonable, but I've rolled my eyes at a few menus down Wellington Street targeting faux-hipsters in the Hintonburg area.

2013 Mar 5
I wish the specific gripes about Art-Is-In could have stayed with their listing. God knows there is ego at that place, and I'm sure someone there will be reading their reviews from time to time. I think the discussion of their pricing is entirely appropriate on their vendor page - they might not see it here.

Maybe one of their regular customers can point out this topic to them?

2013 Mar 5
Second that AD_2! Or at the least have Art-Is-In in the subject line.

2013 Mar 5
But it's not just about Art-is-in. It's about Tacolot, and Hintonburger, and the Pearl of India, and probably every street food vendor coming our way. Ottawa stinks for reasonably priced food.

2013 Mar 5
The posts I moved here were the ones that started to mention other vendors. I left the Art-Is-In posts under that vendor entry.

2013 Mar 5
I agree with FF moving this here, but a 'Price Gripes (Art-is-in, among others)' title might be more apt since they seem to be the chief offender.

I like sourdough's 'goose crowd' bit, very funny.

Btw, since somebody mentioned Hintonburger, check Shawna Wagman's (justified) demolition job of them in Ottawa Magazine.


2013 Mar 5
Food cost for most restaurants is between 25% and 40%.
Drink Costs are usually 5% to 20%

However, many places off-set a high food cost item with a low food cost one in order to keep all dishes close to a set price point.

E.g a Foie Gras dish might run 40 to 50% food cost but a vegetarian pasta might only run 7 or 10%.

The reason they don't have a fixed cost percentages is to avoid having a $50 entree listed above a $16 entree on the menu.


2013 Mar 5
Re "Btw, since somebody mentioned Hintonburger, check Shawna Wagman's (justified) demolition job of them in Ottawa Magazine."

Just did. Wow/ouch.




2013 Mar 5
... and if it was a choice in over priced breakfast burgers.

I would take the Art-is-In Breakfast Burger over the Hintonburger version .... ANY DAY ... and would willingly pay $14 for it. (See pic)

More here : www.ottawamagazine.com


2013 Mar 6
I was in the airport yesterday killing time watching people and noticed the number of people wearing 'brand' labeled parkas as mentioned above. So now I have the idea that I officially TM, I will be offering your own arm/shoulder badges you can add to your own more economically priced parkas. The brand is Canada Moose. These patches can be added to parkas, plaid jackets and backpacks. Economically priced and very trendy! Taking pre-orders now. Your mom can sew them onto your parka for you. Want your kids to be trendy as well? Add a Canada Moose logo to their outfit.

Sincerely,

Krusty (founder of Canada Moose)

and back to food. There are some fair value places to eat in Ottawa but I think there needs to be some adjustments for trendiness and value. Just because there is some brand attachment, you wont be getting my $$ unless you really have that level of value. When I was younger I was much more of a sucker, now these places need to impress me to get my $$ which is too bad since I dont have any ethical issues in dropping $200+ for a fab meal.

2013 Mar 6
I too will drop $200+ for a fab meal ...

... but I won't waste 10 bucks on two shitty tacos !!

(And most of you know what I'm talkn' about.)


2013 Mar 6
I'm no restauranteur, nor am I an expert on economics or pricing, but I've sure been thinking a lot lately on how to price things to keep a business going.

I've spent the last few weeks working on our farms taxes, and trying to forecast and plan our coming growing season. After completing the taxes, I have a theory (for what it's worth) on why the prices might be going up at various eateries.

The cost of everything always seems to be going up, but it wasn't until I took a very close look at our farm books that I realized that prices REALLY went high this year. Just about everything we produced this year cost us double or more from last year. Hay is up, grain is up, seed is up, and fuel to do anything with the hay, grain, or seed is up. The lowest increase in input costs I've seen on our farm over the last year is about a 30% increase, and the highest is about a 60% increase.

For us on the farm, we can decrease production and can plan to grow more animal feed to lower our costs somewhat, but at some point, even our prices have to go up to ensure we can keep producing food.

Most restaurants don't have the choice or ability to grow more of their own foodstuffs. And if farms have to raise their prices to break even or make profit, than restaurants that buy food have to pay more, which means the people eating there will have to pay more.

But as I said, just a theory.


2013 Mar 7
Talk to the man ...


2013 Mar 7
Thanks for the post, organicgirl, it is really interesting to hear about the situation from your perspective. I really should get out to the Heron market one of these days...

In terms of restaurant prices, I find Art-is-in to be a bit pricey myself. My partner and I went for brunch last summer and had to fight for a seat on the loading dock bay while balancing our $3,50 drip coffees and I thought 'this isn't worth it'. I don't think the prices for the sandwiches are terrible, it is the accompaniments that get you! That isn't to say I don't still visit from time to time, their baguettes and their croissants are to die for.

I am trying out Supply and Demand tonight, and I will report back on value for money there. Sometimes I find that the small plates option leaves you with a much lighter wallet than the traditional apps and mains restaurants).

And for what it's worth, I have a Canada Goose parka, and gripe all you want, but it's the warmest thing i've ever owned. Which really helps when you have to walk your dog in -40 weather. Come to think of it, I went without eating out for a few months to afford it, so I guess everyone makes their own choices.

2013 Mar 7
Perhaps arguable, but the Canada Goose parkasplosion is an example of a situation where people, many many many people, will pay more for a product that is better and local and does what they want it to. There will always be individuals who dislike a product because it is popular, because 'everyone bought into the hype', but at the base you get what you paid for.

Translate that to restaurants and you have the reason why Art-is-In remains packed... they deliver quality food that people enjoy and are willing to pay the asking price for.

2013 Mar 7
You know I never understood the impact of brand until I was sitting in a strategy class discussing Harley Davidson. They do not make the best performing bikes, but portray and image that appeals to tough guys and middle aged men. Yet people line up to buy these at inflated prices.

Brand appeal is nothing new and equally applies to food.

2013 Mar 7
Love the Stompin’ Tom clip, Zym!

I didn't comment on the Canada Goose stuff before, because while I don't live in a hole or under a rock, I do sort of live in my own country bubble. I had no idea that the CG parkas were so popular with city dwellers!

I have a Canada Goose parka. It was my dad's. He bought it for a huge sum of money the year he was living up in Pond Inlet on Baffin Island. He loved that coat, and as a man that spent most of his life living in warm climates, it made his stay up north livable.

My step-mudder gave me his coat when he died. I resisted using it for a long time, I didn't want to wreck it on the farm, but I finally gave in one year and started using it for chores. I'd give the coat back in a heartbeat if meant I could have my dad back, but I tell you, that coat is AMAZING!!! Having to work outside everyday all winter long I feel VERY blessed to have that coat, and feel it was worth every penny my dad paid for it. I get it cleaned at the end of the winter and it practically looks like new.

AND, I can fit almost 3 dozen eggs in the big pouch pockets on the front. Can't say that about too many coats, lol!

2013 Mar 8
Further to the food pricing discussion, today I learned some of what goes into my favorite meatball sandwich. Beef that is marinated in home made ketchup and grana padano before it is ground for the meatballs. house made sesame sub buns. house made sauces: ketchup, mayo, and a creamy avocado sauce. Add in the fresh greens, variety of melted cheeses etc and I think it's a bargain at $10.95. I am certainly willing to pay for the both the quality ingredients and the art and craft that goes into creating and serving that sandwich, especially when it's less than 11 bucks.

2013 Mar 8
Yes, but what about the pancakes... are they made with goose eggs, Stirling butter, horse milk, and house-milled flour? ;-)

There's really no question that much of the food at Art-Is-In is good value. But it's less good value than it used to be, and it isn't *all* good value. That's the point I think people are trying to make.

But like I said, until the lineups disappear the complainers' opinions are quite irrelevant. :-)

2013 Mar 8
When I enjoyed the meatball sandwich it was $9.95 a little over a month ago, and on a dynamite white half loaf which I enjoyed more than I would a sesame bun. This is one big gripe with Art-is-in: the varying prices.

Btw, why the several thumbs down for Zym's Stompin' Tom vid? I personally don't care to hear that hockey song ever again, but from what I gather he seems to have been a legend and loved by all. Am I missing something? RIP

I thought the little NDP jam session was hysterical and political opportunism at its best, as if these clowns have a working class bone in their body. I'm sure they were back to their Feist playlist on their latest iPods after that spectacle.

2013 Mar 8
$17 for a mediocre burger crappy frozen breaded onion rings at Big Rig today now that is a damn shame.2 pancakes for $14 seems a little steep for some flour,milk,baking powder,salt,sugar,egg and butter. Can't imagine what French toast would cost imagine the mark up on that fake vanilla.Art-Is-in makes a great sandwich at a fair price that's a fact Jack!

2013 Mar 12
You can't put a price on love.

2013 Mar 19
I know how much ingredients cost and the time and effort put into creating a delicious meal so I don't mind paying for a great meal. Unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find a great meal at a reasonable price. I've found that the more I cook and experiment with new flavours the more discouraged I get with what I'm served when I eat out. I don't think I'm very picky - is this anyone else's experience?

2013 Mar 19
Yes. Sorry, sammy. I can only give you one thumbs up at a time.

Everything (except the way I do it) sucks.

2013 Mar 20
So true sammy! Saw something this week on the food network with pesto,tomato sauce and meat balls in a sandwich. The BBQ is going to make an appearance this weekend and an experiment with a burger instead of meat balls seems in order.

2013 Mar 20
I know this is Off-topic and I like OG's story about her father's Canada Goose jacket but a $600-$700 price point - come on ... I know it can be hard to find good quality items in our modern world but it you are sensible and look a bit ... I've been very happy with the coat I purchased at the Bay for under $200 probably more in the $100 price range. The coat actually keeps me so warm that I tend to wear it only on very cold days.

Along this same lines, has anyone been following the rising populatity of Manitobah Mukluks - you might know this brand if you browse through ads in Vogue, Elle & other such magazines. (see the company history below).

On another note, it's like people who drive Jeeps in the city and have never been off road and can't stand to see any mud or dirt on their vehicle.

Okay - I'll stop now, sounds like I got up on the wrong side of the bed OR what really happened they switched my French Roast coffee for Hazelnut flavoured crap (see I know I could find a foodie link here ...)

********

1990 - Métis siblings Sean and Heather McCormick establish a trading post in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Aboriginal artisans trade handmade mukluks and moccasins for the McCormicks' tanned leather skins and furs.

1997 - The McCormicks register a Canadian corporation and begin manufacturing Aboriginal footwear.

2006 - Hollywood stars are photographed wearing the company's products, creating interest from all corners of the world.

2008 - Manitobah Mukluk's global brand office is established in Canada's Capital Region. International sales partnerships are created to meet growing demand.

TODAY - Manitobah Mukluks partners with Vibram™ to develop a high-abrasion sole for the urban market and launches a project to create business-building partnerships with elders and artists in Aboriginal communities.



2013 Mar 20
I have a down coat. Well two of them actually. They are not black, they don't have the "Canada Goose" logo on them, and I'm sure I only paid in the $200 range for each of them. But they are very warm and I would never go back to wool coats. Ever. Like alot of designer labels you are paying $200 for the clothing and $400 for the label. One of my friends has money to spend and it's important to her to have the designer labels. I couldn't care less as long as the clothing is functional and within my budget. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

sammy I totally agree. When I eat out I usually pick menu items I can't/don't cook at home. When I cook my own meals I tend to stick to easier recipes because I don't have the patience to experiment with more complicated ones. Needless to say I usually have alot to pick from when I eat out-;) I was in Farm Boy recently and took a peek at the take-out counter on my way past. Granted alot of their meals look good quite a few dishes are items I can recreate at home. I can't imagine forking out money on something like that.

2013 Mar 20
I think Farmboy is trying to copy Wholefoods slightly. What I like about Wholefoods is that they have a hot counter with roast or something nice prepared food sometime. I liked to go there sometimes when I am on the road in the US since I can do a takeout meal for dinner plus pick up some yogurt, drinks and snacks for the rest the the week.

I tend to order things I could not or would not cook normally. Creme brulee is favourite dessert (done it once but it is too much work lol) and sushi or long braised beef dish such as beef cheeks in red wines are current favourites for hte main event.

2014 May 18
Three-dollar-donuts at Art Is In Bakery.
The story continues.

2014 May 20
I find the donuts to be the extremely expensive at Art-is-in, especially given the price of Suzy Q, only a few blocks away. However the bigger gripe is the size of the donuts at AII. They are enourmous. Do people really need that much donut ;) I long for the days when bakeries made treats normal sized.

On the other end of things, I find the bread at AII reasonably priced, plus I can always find what I want in the 2-for-1 at the end of the day. We eat a lot of their bread, it is delicious and I'm happy to pay for it.

Richmond Bakery, in Richmond, has the lowest priced bakery products I've found in the area.

2014 May 20
"Do people really need that much donut"

Yes, yes we do.

...because donuts.

2014 May 21
...because donuts.

"SO SAY WE ALL!"

2014 May 21
I love the huge Art-is-in doughnuts, and I consider the potato-buttermilk one I had there to be the best standard glazed doughnut in town. The little Berliners seem overpriced to me, but until those lineups get shorter my opinion is meaningless. :-)

2014 May 21
Don't know if it's a conspiracy or not, but a fungus is killing coffee in Latin America and the prices may skyrocket.

www.nationaljournal.com


2014 May 21
OSoloMeal & Rizak - but I want to taste more than one donut! I'd rather buy multiple donut flavours, which I do with Suzy Q, but not AII. However, my favourite is the AII cinnamon kronut holes. They are $1 and perfect size/price and go well with coffee. Too well....

Fresh Foodie - Richmond bakery donuts are cheaper and larger. They are just fluffy, white flour & sugar - nothing fancy (which isn't always a bad thing).

Other donut options, are cider cinnamon that Hall's sells at the Farmer's market. 6 for $4 (or used to be). They are heavy, cake style and good warmed up with tea.