A not so 'Social' experience! [Food/Vendor]
2008 Aug 18
I want to write them a letter on your behalf. Good grief.
As Stephanie, from Full House would say: "HOW RUDE!"
That is some seriously poor behaviour. It's a great space, and has great food. But seriously, you cannot treat people that way. I would have had words with him, as well as the manager.
As Stephanie, from Full House would say: "HOW RUDE!"
That is some seriously poor behaviour. It's a great space, and has great food. But seriously, you cannot treat people that way. I would have had words with him, as well as the manager.
2008 Aug 18
Zym - I'm thinking that it could be "both"... obviously it is a Commentary on Service (or lack of) but also a partial review (there is no food mentioned per se). Obviously, MMF wanted to share with us her extraordinary experience and was hoping for feedback, and hence I believe it is more of a Forum topic. I hope she does post a Review on Social (and how the rest of the whole evening went down food wise, I'm curious, because I've heard mixed things regarding this restaurant lately).
Anyhow...
MMF - I can't believe the GAUL of this guy. I'm so glad you decided to write a letter to Management, it will be interesting to see what their response is.
Anyhow...
MMF - I can't believe the GAUL of this guy. I'm so glad you decided to write a letter to Management, it will be interesting to see what their response is.
2008 Aug 18
MMF - Just read your Review... well at least they got the food right, but as you said it was pretty basic stuff. Thank goodness though that the food wasn't off in addition to the service, talk about leave a bad taste! Its sad though when you go out for a nice evening with friends, are in a frame of mind where drinks, dinner and fun are on the menu, and some "jerk" has to spoil it all. I still can't get over the nerve of this guy with his "smelling your dinner comment"... too bad you weren't quick on the draw and could have replied....
"Yup, something around here stinks and it ain't the food bud."
Sad thing is I bet he doesn't even know he has an attitude problem. And unfortunately, he probably P's off a lot of his customers. And then when they don't tip well, he just thinks of them as cheap. At least your letter should have some impact. Hopefully Management will see things from your perspective, do keep us informed of their response.
"Yup, something around here stinks and it ain't the food bud."
Sad thing is I bet he doesn't even know he has an attitude problem. And unfortunately, he probably P's off a lot of his customers. And then when they don't tip well, he just thinks of them as cheap. At least your letter should have some impact. Hopefully Management will see things from your perspective, do keep us informed of their response.
2008 Aug 18
"Someone once told what the major difference is between Canadians and Americans. He said: "When an American gets angry ... they get a gun .... and when a Canadian gets angry, they write a letter !!" -- Captain Caper
Given that the topic at hand has nothing to do with either Americans or guns, was that really appropriate? Did it add any value to the discussion? As an American living in Canada for the past 6 years, I've developed a fairly thick skin, yet every now and then, I reach my limit of "dumb American", "fat American", "violent American", or whatever else you can come up with, comments. I guess tonight is one of those nights. I'm sure it was just a friendly jab, but lets stick to the food here. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I like to think of OttawaFoodies as a site where we can forget our differences and come together to discuss a common interest.
On to the topic at hand, and purpose of this site, I also had a horrendous service experience at Social while dining with work colleagues. We got a bunch of appetizers to share, and they arrived at the same time, so when they were set down we each took a bite of a different one (I think we had 4). Anyhow, they were all cold. Not lukewarm, really pretty cold (and they were supposed to be warm). We called the waitress over, and she answered in a baby voice "Now how am I supposed to take this back when half of it is in your tummies?" She then refused to take it back until we got a manager, who barely uttered an apology, nothing more.
The rest of the meal involved a wrong order, a forgotten drink, and a 20-minute wait for our plates to be cleared. When I saw this posting, I assumed it must be the same server. But you reference a male server (ours was female, so we must have had someone different), which makes the problem worse -- clearly its not just one person, but several.
Given that the topic at hand has nothing to do with either Americans or guns, was that really appropriate? Did it add any value to the discussion? As an American living in Canada for the past 6 years, I've developed a fairly thick skin, yet every now and then, I reach my limit of "dumb American", "fat American", "violent American", or whatever else you can come up with, comments. I guess tonight is one of those nights. I'm sure it was just a friendly jab, but lets stick to the food here. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I like to think of OttawaFoodies as a site where we can forget our differences and come together to discuss a common interest.
On to the topic at hand, and purpose of this site, I also had a horrendous service experience at Social while dining with work colleagues. We got a bunch of appetizers to share, and they arrived at the same time, so when they were set down we each took a bite of a different one (I think we had 4). Anyhow, they were all cold. Not lukewarm, really pretty cold (and they were supposed to be warm). We called the waitress over, and she answered in a baby voice "Now how am I supposed to take this back when half of it is in your tummies?" She then refused to take it back until we got a manager, who barely uttered an apology, nothing more.
The rest of the meal involved a wrong order, a forgotten drink, and a 20-minute wait for our plates to be cleared. When I saw this posting, I assumed it must be the same server. But you reference a male server (ours was female, so we must have had someone different), which makes the problem worse -- clearly its not just one person, but several.
2008 Aug 18
I think Marno, CC was referring to the fact that Canadians are typically very passive when it comes complaining. We are bred not to complain. That's what I took it as...not that all Americans are gun wielding.
Social is so very much on my "avoid" list: Fresh Foodie, can you make a column for "Avoid at all costs" in addition to "Favourite"? Please!!! (Even if it were hidden...some of us just don't learn from mistakes).
Social is so very much on my "avoid" list: Fresh Foodie, can you make a column for "Avoid at all costs" in addition to "Favourite"? Please!!! (Even if it were hidden...some of us just don't learn from mistakes).
2008 Aug 18
Hey Marno;
No offence was intended. It was based on the fact that the customer, My Mom's a Foodie, did not bring the problems with the server (at Social) directly to the manager on duty and went ahead tipped 10% anyway. Soooooo Canadian. Thus the comment.
So after 6 years, don't you see any differences between Canadians and American's when it comes to customer service ?
As you may be know, the Pledge of Allegiance is mandatory in many US schools. Thus the institutional programming of patriotism.
From wiki ... "After a proclamation by President Benjamin Harrison, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892 ". (Singing 'God Save the Queen' is no longer sung in Canadian schools.)
You sound proudly patriotic.
I'm not saying it's bad to be patriotic ... but maybe someday we will all be citizens of the planet and not have nationhood. Wouldn't that clear up a lot of problems ?
Yes... this not the forum for such discussions ... but I hope that you will get further insight into those Canadians that rub you the wrong way.
No offence was intended. It was based on the fact that the customer, My Mom's a Foodie, did not bring the problems with the server (at Social) directly to the manager on duty and went ahead tipped 10% anyway. Soooooo Canadian. Thus the comment.
So after 6 years, don't you see any differences between Canadians and American's when it comes to customer service ?
As you may be know, the Pledge of Allegiance is mandatory in many US schools. Thus the institutional programming of patriotism.
From wiki ... "After a proclamation by President Benjamin Harrison, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892 ". (Singing 'God Save the Queen' is no longer sung in Canadian schools.)
You sound proudly patriotic.
I'm not saying it's bad to be patriotic ... but maybe someday we will all be citizens of the planet and not have nationhood. Wouldn't that clear up a lot of problems ?
Yes... this not the forum for such discussions ... but I hope that you will get further insight into those Canadians that rub you the wrong way.
2008 Aug 18
Always the optimist, I would suggest that perhaps the tip was pooled with other servers and kitchen staff, and also that the particular server in question might have been an anomaly whose days at that restaurant are numbered.
I respect MMaF's decision to send a letter rather than tainting the whole outing for her companions by raising a fuss then and there. "Discretion is being able to raise your eyebrow instead of your voice." Cheers. :-)
I respect MMaF's decision to send a letter rather than tainting the whole outing for her companions by raising a fuss then and there. "Discretion is being able to raise your eyebrow instead of your voice." Cheers. :-)
2008 Aug 19
"Discretion is being able to raise your eyebrows instead of your voice"? Wow, I'll have to use that one more often! I generally raise my eyebrows, and people accuse me then of being passive-agressive. I call it "tact".
Needless to say, a fuss wouldn't have been necessary. I would not have left a tip. I tip for service, not for the food. If the food has been outstanding, then I will tip more, and ask them to put it in a pool for the kitchen staff, yes.
Needless to say, a fuss wouldn't have been necessary. I would not have left a tip. I tip for service, not for the food. If the food has been outstanding, then I will tip more, and ask them to put it in a pool for the kitchen staff, yes.
2008 Aug 19
A tough situation to be in, and I don't envy FoodieMom. One thing I would have considered fairly early on, is I would have gazed around the patio, and seen if there was space available at either Courtyard Restaraunt, or The Black Tomato, and if so, I would have picked up the party, and moved it to the nearby competitor. I would leave food uneaten, and drinks un-drunk, and ZERO tip. I would even consider, if barely, not paying at all before moving to the other adjoining patio, and telling the waiter he can bring the bill to you over there. But I would likely only do this in my imagination as I would not like to imply that I can be as crass and poorly mannered as him...
2008 Aug 20
LOL, you guys are cracking me up...
PiO - I could just imagine the look on the "stunned" waiter's face as you relocated, and told him to bring the bill to you over yonder... Let's face it though it probably wouldn't work, more than likely this @hole would call the cops claiming that you "left the premises". Ah yes, but we can dream!
Captain C - Your "tips" are priceless. Of course there is always that old put some money in a glass of water and turn it upside down on the table trick, so the only way he can get the cash, is to spill the water all over. A neat trick if one is able to do it (I never could master the technique). My all time favourite was a girlfriend of mine who used to leave 2 cents... and she made it very obvious that this was the tip, by putting it with the bill. Some times she'd even write on the bill...
"Here is my 2 cents worth... Your Service Stunk!"
Far more effective than leaving no tip, when you leave no tip they think you are cheap, they don't get the connection. Two cents makes it loud & clear.
PiO - I could just imagine the look on the "stunned" waiter's face as you relocated, and told him to bring the bill to you over yonder... Let's face it though it probably wouldn't work, more than likely this @hole would call the cops claiming that you "left the premises". Ah yes, but we can dream!
Captain C - Your "tips" are priceless. Of course there is always that old put some money in a glass of water and turn it upside down on the table trick, so the only way he can get the cash, is to spill the water all over. A neat trick if one is able to do it (I never could master the technique). My all time favourite was a girlfriend of mine who used to leave 2 cents... and she made it very obvious that this was the tip, by putting it with the bill. Some times she'd even write on the bill...
"Here is my 2 cents worth... Your Service Stunk!"
Far more effective than leaving no tip, when you leave no tip they think you are cheap, they don't get the connection. Two cents makes it loud & clear.
2008 Aug 20
I too had a similarly disappointing experience at said establishment on Sunday the 18th. At noon my mother and I decided to try their patio lunch after one waiter described the lunch special (sandwich, gazpacho and roasted potatoes for $12). Sounded like the right amount of food and the right price. Had I known that it would take 45-50 minutes for those plates to arrive, after waiting 10 minutes for someone to take the drink order, I would have tried the more reliable Black Tomato. We also waited 15 minutes for the plates to be cleared, which only happened because I had to go into the restaurant to find our waiter for the bill.
If the manager of this operation is smart, he/she is reading these posts and making some changes pronto. This place won't last another six months with this level of service, especially after the tourists are gone.
If the manager of this operation is smart, he/she is reading these posts and making some changes pronto. This place won't last another six months with this level of service, especially after the tourists are gone.
2008 Aug 22
As someone who has been working in various restaurants for a few years now, and also has many contacts in the industry, I can assure you that many managers do, in fact, read online reviews, as I have witnessed this at more than one restaurant. I don't see why a smart manager wouldn't - your customers are your livelyhood, and here they are, telling you EXACTLY what they want - and posting thier impressions for the world to see. Good or bad publicity- even if the source is "online peasants and peons" like us, and not from a "real" reviewer is still publicity and can make or break your restaurant, especially in the online-review-heavy city of Ottawa. Statistics have shown that one dissatisfied customer can keep up to 30 people away from a restaurant by sharing thier experience - why woldn't you try to minimize customer dissatisfaction by reading up on thier comments? It's really another form of market research - something companies pay big bucks for- for free!
As for how long her lunch took to arrive at the table, as far as I know, the only person who was there on this particular day appears to be arugula, not you, so I'm confused as to how you have more information on the subject than she does.
As for how long her lunch took to arrive at the table, as far as I know, the only person who was there on this particular day appears to be arugula, not you, so I'm confused as to how you have more information on the subject than she does.
2008 Aug 22
Check C-Raven's credentials. I'll eat my hat if he's not an insider at Social, or is related to one. Nice little hit and run (join, leave one comment on a board critical to a restaurant only 15 minutes later ). Maybe he/she was confusing the 15 minutes it took him/her to join, and comment with the 45 minutes it took arugula to get her food. Of course, the presence, and comment of C-Raven might just be proving your point HOT! that they do read the reviews ;-)
2008 Aug 22
C-Ravens - You'd be surprised who belongs to Ottawa Foodies, or who drops by for a browse now and then... besides the usual line-up of Food Lovers and Wine Affectinados, and Tourists there are Food Critics, Food Writers, Food Tv Personalities, Restaurant Owners, Chefs and Bartenders, and oh ya there is the occasional Waiter who hears about a review and comes by for a peak and doesn't like what he reads.
;-P
Why else would you be defending poor service by an incompetent waiter by saying "I bet your lunch took 15-20 minutes". So you see, you never can tell who drops by here!
PS... For your sake let's hope your boss IS NOT someone who drops by here, because he may not recognize your "user name", but he may just recognize your arrogant attitude!
;-P
Why else would you be defending poor service by an incompetent waiter by saying "I bet your lunch took 15-20 minutes". So you see, you never can tell who drops by here!
PS... For your sake let's hope your boss IS NOT someone who drops by here, because he may not recognize your "user name", but he may just recognize your arrogant attitude!
2008 Aug 22
Hi Summer,
Although you had a disappointing experience, I think it would be prudent that you may address your concerns to the proprietors directly. As you know in your own restaurant experience, constructive feedback is usually appreciated.
Myself, I dine at a lot of places but do not comment unless asked. And, if there is a problem, and I feel compelled, I would comment most privately. But, that is my style.
Kind regards,
Ron
Although you had a disappointing experience, I think it would be prudent that you may address your concerns to the proprietors directly. As you know in your own restaurant experience, constructive feedback is usually appreciated.
Myself, I dine at a lot of places but do not comment unless asked. And, if there is a problem, and I feel compelled, I would comment most privately. But, that is my style.
Kind regards,
Ron
2008 Aug 23
Hi Ron,
I have to defend (not that she needs it) Summer a bit here. You don't say it, but you imply that the review may be just some form of sour grapes, and that it is a duty or responsibility of hers to inform the owners. I 100% disagree. She is not a professional reviewer posting her thoughts in the NY Times, she is a well received member of a food social community (this site) sharing her experiences with her colleagues and friends. The mistakes that were made, were made by the restaurant, and it is their responsibility to fix, not hers to point out. As can be seen by the other comments, hers is hardly an isolated incident. It would seem to me that the management there doesn't seem to care about such treatment anymore. I say this boldly, and totally without personal provocation, or other justification, but I believe it is management’s JOB to know what is going on in their establishment. Although I appreciate your 'style' of quiet prudence, I think the way you present it in your comment is arrogant, belittling, and disingenuous.
Regards,
Pete
I have to defend (not that she needs it) Summer a bit here. You don't say it, but you imply that the review may be just some form of sour grapes, and that it is a duty or responsibility of hers to inform the owners. I 100% disagree. She is not a professional reviewer posting her thoughts in the NY Times, she is a well received member of a food social community (this site) sharing her experiences with her colleagues and friends. The mistakes that were made, were made by the restaurant, and it is their responsibility to fix, not hers to point out. As can be seen by the other comments, hers is hardly an isolated incident. It would seem to me that the management there doesn't seem to care about such treatment anymore. I say this boldly, and totally without personal provocation, or other justification, but I believe it is management’s JOB to know what is going on in their establishment. Although I appreciate your 'style' of quiet prudence, I think the way you present it in your comment is arrogant, belittling, and disingenuous.
Regards,
Pete
2008 Aug 23
Rambling Thoughts:
To be fair, I actually sort of kind of agree that there are occasions when a patron COULD bring thier concerns to the attention of the restaurant and easily have the problem corrected, however they choose to say nothing and then write a scathing review, without giving the restaurant the opportunity to correct the problem. It's a tough call though - obviously a thoroughly terrible waiter, or unreasonably long wait times are deeper problems and are not as "quickly corrected" as, say, cold fries or the wrong side dish etc.
I don't want to put out bad food of course - but hey- people can make mistakes, especially when you're dealing with x amount of covers a night. If people don't like the food at it's core, or the service, I can't do much about that, but I HOPE that if there is an ERROR regarding the food, that the customer will bring up so that I can at least try to fix it before my place of work - that is, my source of income - suffers too much online.
I dunno, having been both patron AND reviewee for the past 2 years I have a love/hate relationship with online reviews lol - some people just like to find things to bitch about, some people have unreasonable expectations (for example a woman who came in during a prime-dinner-hour-full-restaurant-Friday-night-rush and demanded we made her something special and not-on-the-menu. Not just a MODIFIED item, no no, it had to be totally from scratch. We explained that as the kitchen was so busy at this time we were not able to accomodate this request and if next time she would call with her request in advance we would be happy to have something ready - she was quite nasty about it. What kind of review would she write I wonder?). If you remember the well-done chicken ladies I wrote about on an earlier post - would thier review state that the chicken was dried out even though it was them who requested it be that way? Anyways, thier reviews are just as visible as anyone else's, so obviously online reviews must always be taken with a grain of salt.
To be fair, I actually sort of kind of agree that there are occasions when a patron COULD bring thier concerns to the attention of the restaurant and easily have the problem corrected, however they choose to say nothing and then write a scathing review, without giving the restaurant the opportunity to correct the problem. It's a tough call though - obviously a thoroughly terrible waiter, or unreasonably long wait times are deeper problems and are not as "quickly corrected" as, say, cold fries or the wrong side dish etc.
I don't want to put out bad food of course - but hey- people can make mistakes, especially when you're dealing with x amount of covers a night. If people don't like the food at it's core, or the service, I can't do much about that, but I HOPE that if there is an ERROR regarding the food, that the customer will bring up so that I can at least try to fix it before my place of work - that is, my source of income - suffers too much online.
I dunno, having been both patron AND reviewee for the past 2 years I have a love/hate relationship with online reviews lol - some people just like to find things to bitch about, some people have unreasonable expectations (for example a woman who came in during a prime-dinner-hour-full-restaurant-Friday-night-rush and demanded we made her something special and not-on-the-menu. Not just a MODIFIED item, no no, it had to be totally from scratch. We explained that as the kitchen was so busy at this time we were not able to accomodate this request and if next time she would call with her request in advance we would be happy to have something ready - she was quite nasty about it. What kind of review would she write I wonder?). If you remember the well-done chicken ladies I wrote about on an earlier post - would thier review state that the chicken was dried out even though it was them who requested it be that way? Anyways, thier reviews are just as visible as anyone else's, so obviously online reviews must always be taken with a grain of salt.
2008 Aug 23
Pete - Although I agree that MMF has every right to critique a Restaurant here on this site (afterall that is what we do) I also have to say I think you came on a little strong with Citizen Ron.
Let's for the sake of argument, look at it from Ron's perspective. Part of his job as a Food Editor requires that HE IS a Professional Reviewer (although perhaps not in the same format as say Anne DesBrisay) so for him and how he "comfortably" deals with things that go wrong in a restaurant, may be quite different from how you and I might choose to. I would imagine that he can't very well go around saying always what pops into his head when he is out or else it would be a case of "Citizen Ron said this...". What he does professionally in order to have merit in the community, has to be somewhat seperate from what he does in his personal life, otherwise the JOB would be a 24/7 thing where he'd never have any time to relax and just be out having a meal (I base this partially on the fact that Citizen Ron rarely comments here on this site on a particular Vendor, but rather has kept his comments to general topics, so I think that was what he was trying to say when he referred to "his style", but I'm guessing it got lost in translation).
I do think that Ron made a valid point though in suggesting that MMF take this up with Management directly (which she has done by sending them a letter). NOT that MMF is under any obligation to do so... but seeing that her experience was so horrendous, she decided that perhaps Management might want to know. This is most likely the course of action that any of us would have taken a couple of years back before Internet Review sites became so widely available, now we generally just post a review for all to see. As for Management, the ball is now in their court... I would certainly hope they respond to MMF's letter with a written apology.
As for the comment that it is Management's Job to know what is going on in their establishment, I whole heartedly agree. And part of that in this computer age is googling themselves on the internet on a regular basis to see what is being said about them. Unfortunately, the idea of "mass communication" and it's impact doesn't seem to resonate with all establishments, but IMO those who are computer saavy, are beginning to gain an advantage over the competition.
Food Is Hot - Like you I have found that the best way to deal with the info that is on an Internet Review Site is to take it "with a grain of salt"... and sort of average out the comments. You are so right in the concept that some people (a) will never be satisfied and (b) some just don't have a clue about what they are reviewing (like the chicken ladies) or (c) some people want the world, and they expect to get it for free.
Let's for the sake of argument, look at it from Ron's perspective. Part of his job as a Food Editor requires that HE IS a Professional Reviewer (although perhaps not in the same format as say Anne DesBrisay) so for him and how he "comfortably" deals with things that go wrong in a restaurant, may be quite different from how you and I might choose to. I would imagine that he can't very well go around saying always what pops into his head when he is out or else it would be a case of "Citizen Ron said this...". What he does professionally in order to have merit in the community, has to be somewhat seperate from what he does in his personal life, otherwise the JOB would be a 24/7 thing where he'd never have any time to relax and just be out having a meal (I base this partially on the fact that Citizen Ron rarely comments here on this site on a particular Vendor, but rather has kept his comments to general topics, so I think that was what he was trying to say when he referred to "his style", but I'm guessing it got lost in translation).
I do think that Ron made a valid point though in suggesting that MMF take this up with Management directly (which she has done by sending them a letter). NOT that MMF is under any obligation to do so... but seeing that her experience was so horrendous, she decided that perhaps Management might want to know. This is most likely the course of action that any of us would have taken a couple of years back before Internet Review sites became so widely available, now we generally just post a review for all to see. As for Management, the ball is now in their court... I would certainly hope they respond to MMF's letter with a written apology.
As for the comment that it is Management's Job to know what is going on in their establishment, I whole heartedly agree. And part of that in this computer age is googling themselves on the internet on a regular basis to see what is being said about them. Unfortunately, the idea of "mass communication" and it's impact doesn't seem to resonate with all establishments, but IMO those who are computer saavy, are beginning to gain an advantage over the competition.
Food Is Hot - Like you I have found that the best way to deal with the info that is on an Internet Review Site is to take it "with a grain of salt"... and sort of average out the comments. You are so right in the concept that some people (a) will never be satisfied and (b) some just don't have a clue about what they are reviewing (like the chicken ladies) or (c) some people want the world, and they expect to get it for free.
2008 Aug 23
As expected, everyone in this discussion is making excellent points. I feel that I should point out that Summer is in fact doing what Citizen Ron suggests: she sent a letter to management ("address your concerns to the proprietors directly") and she decided to post her negative experience in the forums rather than under the restaurant's vendor listing on this site ("if there is a problem, and I feel compelled, I would comment most privately").
Now of course I don't mind seeing well-written and respectable negative experiences under the vendor entry rather than the forums, but I understood why Summer chose to post to the forums instead. She was leaning towards Citizen Ron's suggestion of discretion and also respecting this site's preference of having positive reviews rather than negative ones. So what's the big deal here? :)
Now of course I don't mind seeing well-written and respectable negative experiences under the vendor entry rather than the forums, but I understood why Summer chose to post to the forums instead. She was leaning towards Citizen Ron's suggestion of discretion and also respecting this site's preference of having positive reviews rather than negative ones. So what's the big deal here? :)
2008 Aug 23
F&T - Just to be clear, I do not think I was harsh with Ron at all. Unlike his missive, where he insinuates personal discredit on Summer, my post is very clear that I do not like how he makes his point. At no point do I directly, or through intimation comment on Ron the person. I will restate I totally take issue with what Ron the person wrote. I make the big assumption, that when someone's career is as a wordsmith, they need not be handled with kid gloves when they write things like he did. What he wrote could have been written entirely as an opinion on the most effective way to deal with restaranteurs when problems arise, but instead he paternalisticaly chides that Summer should have known better, and then explains patiently how he likes to handle his affairs, like a parent to a child. I find it mildly ironic that he chose to express his own conviction for quiet, private remonstration, but chose to publicly comment on Summer, instead of using the private message feature, which would have demonstrated his convictions much more effectively (albeit, with much less presentation to all of us). I would ask Ron to apologise for the way he expressed his opinion, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, and if he did he would instead apologise that we misunderstood, the most petty of apologies. That is my subtle challenge to Ron to step up to the plate.
I do thank you F&T for your peacekeeping efforts.
I do thank you F&T for your peacekeeping efforts.
2008 Aug 24
Wow, this sparked some convo! All of you that said I should have posted this under the 'vendor' are probably right. I have actually not looked through them much and forgot I could post my experience directly under the restaurants heading, oops.
In my defence I rarely post my bad restaurant experiences as I know how hard it is to find decent staff and we all have 'off nights' but this was beyond what I had ever experienced there before so I thought I would share it. I am also under the understanding that the whole idea of posting a review on here is to share experiences good or bad? Granted it was posted in the wrong section, again for that I apologize.
I did send a note to the manager but in a weeks time have not heard anything back, not that I asked for a reply. I wonder if he knew it had sparked such a frenzy on here if he would have replied?
In my defence I rarely post my bad restaurant experiences as I know how hard it is to find decent staff and we all have 'off nights' but this was beyond what I had ever experienced there before so I thought I would share it. I am also under the understanding that the whole idea of posting a review on here is to share experiences good or bad? Granted it was posted in the wrong section, again for that I apologize.
I did send a note to the manager but in a weeks time have not heard anything back, not that I asked for a reply. I wonder if he knew it had sparked such a frenzy on here if he would have replied?
2008 Aug 24
As was pointed out earlier, people from restaurants/establishments do read our site. A sentence from my review of DiVino was actually taken from here and posted to their site under testimonials. Not that I mind, just thought I'd point it out.
Part of me wonders if the majority of downtown/market restaurants end up on cruise control with the tourist crowd. I mean, maybe I'm going to the wrong restaurants in the Market, but sometimes I find that the restaurants don't really go that 'extra mile'... almost as if to say that they figure that you probably won't be back anyway. Thoughts?
Part of me wonders if the majority of downtown/market restaurants end up on cruise control with the tourist crowd. I mean, maybe I'm going to the wrong restaurants in the Market, but sometimes I find that the restaurants don't really go that 'extra mile'... almost as if to say that they figure that you probably won't be back anyway. Thoughts?
2008 Aug 24
I would agree with Nanook that the restaurants in the market proper don't go the extra mile. I have had less than wonderful experiences at many places.
That being said, I've always found the vendors, such as La Bottega and Planet Coffee to be wonderful, mostly because they know they deal with both tourists and residents alike. Similarly, restaurants that are off the beaten path, such as Chez Lucien, give wonderful service, because they have regulars who come in every Thursday, or Friday.
That being said, I've always found the vendors, such as La Bottega and Planet Coffee to be wonderful, mostly because they know they deal with both tourists and residents alike. Similarly, restaurants that are off the beaten path, such as Chez Lucien, give wonderful service, because they have regulars who come in every Thursday, or Friday.
2008 Aug 25
Zym - So true. I recently visited a Vendor where I have frequented several times this summer, and they thanked me for the review... I like you was a little surprised by their thank you. Turns out they had been browsing this website (they googled themselves) and had been reading the reviews. They knew that my positive review was me because of some of the points I made about the good service we had received.
Nanook & LWB - Ok, this is kind of freaky, "The Man" and I were just talking about this the other day... are some places just lazy, or cruising along on their "profiled clinetele". Sadly, I truly believe this is becoming a fact-of-life in the market... and it seems to be spreading beyond the usual "tourist traps" (you know the spots, they are full during the summer and virtually empty until Winterlude).
Places that once were more upscale than the fish, italian and buffet places that anchor "tourist row" now seem to becoming infected with this "so what" attitude and getting sloppy in their overall dining experience. I'm wondering what has caused this condition which I perceive as laziness on the part of the owner... Makes me wonder if there is some difficulty in attracting or keeping staff in the market? Any thoughts?
Nanook & LWB - Ok, this is kind of freaky, "The Man" and I were just talking about this the other day... are some places just lazy, or cruising along on their "profiled clinetele". Sadly, I truly believe this is becoming a fact-of-life in the market... and it seems to be spreading beyond the usual "tourist traps" (you know the spots, they are full during the summer and virtually empty until Winterlude).
Places that once were more upscale than the fish, italian and buffet places that anchor "tourist row" now seem to becoming infected with this "so what" attitude and getting sloppy in their overall dining experience. I'm wondering what has caused this condition which I perceive as laziness on the part of the owner... Makes me wonder if there is some difficulty in attracting or keeping staff in the market? Any thoughts?
2008 Aug 25
F&T - Very freaky indeed. I'm not sure about the retention of servers. Certainly there's got to be competition - it seems like every place is hiring these days.
Part of me thinks that the reason is that these places become complacent with the tourist crowd. Having worked in the tourist industry, I can tell you that it becomes very tiring to be dealing with them day in and day out. Is this an excuse for the lacklustre service and quality? No. Is it an explanation? Maybe. With the tourist cycles here (late April-October, January-February), the restaurants in the market can certainly see a tidy enoughg profit to make ends meet during the lower parts of the year.
Perhaps we'll see a change as the Market area experiences an influx of permanent residents?
Before you could pinpoint the tourist traps. Now I find I generally avoid the Market, if at all possible, when it comes to dining out.
Part of me thinks that the reason is that these places become complacent with the tourist crowd. Having worked in the tourist industry, I can tell you that it becomes very tiring to be dealing with them day in and day out. Is this an excuse for the lacklustre service and quality? No. Is it an explanation? Maybe. With the tourist cycles here (late April-October, January-February), the restaurants in the market can certainly see a tidy enoughg profit to make ends meet during the lower parts of the year.
Perhaps we'll see a change as the Market area experiences an influx of permanent residents?
Before you could pinpoint the tourist traps. Now I find I generally avoid the Market, if at all possible, when it comes to dining out.
2008 Aug 25
"Perhaps we'll see a change as the Market area experiences an influx of permanent residents?"
And you expect this to occur sometime soon Nanook?
I have to say, as suburban sprawl has become suburban explosion (ugh), I am finding that there are more and more big box restaurants, and less good locally owned ones, and that the locally owned ones are focused in tourist dense areas, such as the Market, or areas such as Westboro.
And you expect this to occur sometime soon Nanook?
I have to say, as suburban sprawl has become suburban explosion (ugh), I am finding that there are more and more big box restaurants, and less good locally owned ones, and that the locally owned ones are focused in tourist dense areas, such as the Market, or areas such as Westboro.
2008 Aug 26
Ah Yes.... Tourist traps in the Market.
see my earlier comments here ---> www.ottawafoodies.com and here ---> www.ottawafoodies.com
Nothing new here ... After many years of duping both tourists and conference goers, Oregano's is STILL serving Chef Boy-R-Dee !!
PS: I talked to a few people who have moved into the Market (over the years) and are disappointed by the life-style they thought they were going to experience. The homelessness, the open dealing of drugs, people using the bathroom anywhere outside in the night time, some prostitution and the theft of anything that is not nailed down are real big turn-offs ... let alone all those mediocre restaurants. (Of course there are some gems in the 'ol dirt pile ;-))
Some are moving (or have moved) to Wellington Village and Westboro.
see my earlier comments here ---> www.ottawafoodies.com and here ---> www.ottawafoodies.com
Nothing new here ... After many years of duping both tourists and conference goers, Oregano's is STILL serving Chef Boy-R-Dee !!
PS: I talked to a few people who have moved into the Market (over the years) and are disappointed by the life-style they thought they were going to experience. The homelessness, the open dealing of drugs, people using the bathroom anywhere outside in the night time, some prostitution and the theft of anything that is not nailed down are real big turn-offs ... let alone all those mediocre restaurants. (Of course there are some gems in the 'ol dirt pile ;-))
Some are moving (or have moved) to Wellington Village and Westboro.
2008 Aug 26
Hey Zy, We've been through this before .... see ---> www.ottawafoodies.com
Don't forget, both West Wellington and Champlain Park have community associations like Hintonburg and Westboro.
I truly think that Wellington Village is a term dreamed up by Real Estate Agents that want to come up with a trendy name for the area from Parkdale to Island Park Dr. and from the Queeensway to the Ottawa River.
That way they can dissociate the trendy area from the name 'Hintonburg' (and it's Mechanicsville). Seems that the name 'Hintonburg' can still conger up a colorful area with a certain 'character'.
I certainly don't look at it this way... not since they restored The Elmdale House Tavern (and it's new enviro-friendly urinal's .... see picture) ;-)
Don't forget, both West Wellington and Champlain Park have community associations like Hintonburg and Westboro.
I truly think that Wellington Village is a term dreamed up by Real Estate Agents that want to come up with a trendy name for the area from Parkdale to Island Park Dr. and from the Queeensway to the Ottawa River.
That way they can dissociate the trendy area from the name 'Hintonburg' (and it's Mechanicsville). Seems that the name 'Hintonburg' can still conger up a colorful area with a certain 'character'.
I certainly don't look at it this way... not since they restored The Elmdale House Tavern (and it's new enviro-friendly urinal's .... see picture) ;-)
2008 Aug 27
Hintonburg (oh good god, we are off topic), is trendy. But in an underground, industrial, Edinburgh Scotland sort of trendy way.
On the other hand, I get annoyed when I see things east of Island Park listed as "Westboro", or things near Carlingwood for that matter. People just want to be close to the desirable neighbourhood, and as a result the conception of the neighbourhood expands.
Case in point: My friend's sister was in town from Toronto, and my friend lives near Lincoln Fields. We were talking to her sister about where we live (less than five minutes walking from the Westboro Superstore), and she was like "but this is Westboro"...and kept insisting that Lincoln Fields was such. And that, my friends, is how you get Westboro snobs, like myself ;)
On the other hand, I get annoyed when I see things east of Island Park listed as "Westboro", or things near Carlingwood for that matter. People just want to be close to the desirable neighbourhood, and as a result the conception of the neighbourhood expands.
Case in point: My friend's sister was in town from Toronto, and my friend lives near Lincoln Fields. We were talking to her sister about where we live (less than five minutes walking from the Westboro Superstore), and she was like "but this is Westboro"...and kept insisting that Lincoln Fields was such. And that, my friends, is how you get Westboro snobs, like myself ;)
2008 Aug 27
I would basically agree with Pete in Ottawa.
I don't think customers are under any obligation to tell management they are not happy about something and I also think they are perfectly free to express their views publicly. I do not deny that its a good idea to do so as you might get something done about the problem (i.e. a portion of the meal compt) but to me its the customers perogative. Sometimes, I do take up concerns with management and other times I do not. No-one forced restauranteurs to open for business and once they do they are open to public commentary. That's just the way it is in my opinion.
One other point I would make about places like Social and I make this as an observation of my own bias. I would also point out that if I have ever been to Social it was for drinks only so don't take it too seriously. I personally find that places like 18, Social, and Helsinki turn me off a little bit because they seem far too concerned, IMO, with being hip and trendy. Having said that, I did have meal at 18 that was quite nice and worth the money and I would go back. But in general, I get the impression that some places are more concerned with being hip and happening, than they are about their food. I put this out their as an admitted observation of my own biases and aknowledge I may be depriving myself of excellent experiences.
cheers
I don't think customers are under any obligation to tell management they are not happy about something and I also think they are perfectly free to express their views publicly. I do not deny that its a good idea to do so as you might get something done about the problem (i.e. a portion of the meal compt) but to me its the customers perogative. Sometimes, I do take up concerns with management and other times I do not. No-one forced restauranteurs to open for business and once they do they are open to public commentary. That's just the way it is in my opinion.
One other point I would make about places like Social and I make this as an observation of my own bias. I would also point out that if I have ever been to Social it was for drinks only so don't take it too seriously. I personally find that places like 18, Social, and Helsinki turn me off a little bit because they seem far too concerned, IMO, with being hip and trendy. Having said that, I did have meal at 18 that was quite nice and worth the money and I would go back. But in general, I get the impression that some places are more concerned with being hip and happening, than they are about their food. I put this out their as an admitted observation of my own biases and aknowledge I may be depriving myself of excellent experiences.
cheers
2008 Aug 27
MedicineJar - I agree with your opening paragraph. I rarely bring something to management's attention... I either state a food concern to the server, or if it is a service issue, I tend to vote with my actions (leaving less of a tip), and either of these mean I may not be returning for some time. Then if the second visit is no better than the first, I vote with my dollars.... and the place gets written off my list. Of course, I share my feelings on any establishment I visit here on the Foodie Website. I report it all... Good, Bad, Indifferent experiences. And I also will report on subsequent visits... so I figure I give a "balanced" view, because I don't edit out the Good, Bad, or Indifferent.
And as others have said, I believe that On-Line Reviews should always be taken with a "grain of salt". The final decision lies with the reader. Which curiously is exactly as it is with Reviews written by Professional Food Critics.
And as others have said, I believe that On-Line Reviews should always be taken with a "grain of salt". The final decision lies with the reader. Which curiously is exactly as it is with Reviews written by Professional Food Critics.
2008 Aug 28
MedicineJar
since i am apparently a hit and run artist - i would like to say - i agree that Social and 18 may attempt to provide too much atmosphere - however i don't think you can say that it is at the expense of the food.
In all the restaurants that i have worked at there is a definitive segregation between front and back of the house - and generally the owner is at the helm of the operation as far as the decor and ambiance of the establishment is concerned while the head chef is in charge of anything food. I just don't believe you can relate the decor to the food.
since i am apparently a hit and run artist - i would like to say - i agree that Social and 18 may attempt to provide too much atmosphere - however i don't think you can say that it is at the expense of the food.
In all the restaurants that i have worked at there is a definitive segregation between front and back of the house - and generally the owner is at the helm of the operation as far as the decor and ambiance of the establishment is concerned while the head chef is in charge of anything food. I just don't believe you can relate the decor to the food.
2008 Aug 28
Hi to My Mother is a Foodie et al:
I have given some thought as to whether or not I should post a reply to the maelstrom of response following my innocent post of Aug. 22, as it seems whatever I say may be construed by some as inflammatory, paternalistic, disingenuous, belittling, or worse.
Re-reading my comments of last week, I am at a loss to understand the vitriolic fervour, but that is the prerogative of critics shielded by anonymity on the Internet.
My original post on this thread was to merely reinforce to My Mom is A Foodie the need to follow-up, as she indicated, via a letter to the proprietor. Disingenuous on my part? Please. Do my comments insinuate personal discredit, as charged? Oh, come on.
Dealing with management is appropriate, as I would encourage all in the dining public who are not satisfied with food and/or service. If management ignores the feedback, then that is entirely another matter.
If I seemed to be insincere, as accused, in my brief missive, then I apologize for the mistaken impression. I know and respect My Mom as a professional when I knew her fine work in the food service industry, and I know how professionals like Mom prefer to be treated.
Not every restaurant has a good day; some have more bad days than good. There is, regrettably, a serious shortage of good servers.
Those patrons who suggest restaurateurs should somehow intuit how customers feel in the absence of constructive feedback are, I submit, not being fair to restaurateurs.
And, really, that's the point I'm making to all casual readers of this forum -- whether it's a restaurant, or the local convenience store.
I applaud My Mom for writing to the restaurant involved, and merely suggest to others that this is the most appropriate recourse.
Kind regards to all,
Omnivore Ron
I have given some thought as to whether or not I should post a reply to the maelstrom of response following my innocent post of Aug. 22, as it seems whatever I say may be construed by some as inflammatory, paternalistic, disingenuous, belittling, or worse.
Re-reading my comments of last week, I am at a loss to understand the vitriolic fervour, but that is the prerogative of critics shielded by anonymity on the Internet.
My original post on this thread was to merely reinforce to My Mom is A Foodie the need to follow-up, as she indicated, via a letter to the proprietor. Disingenuous on my part? Please. Do my comments insinuate personal discredit, as charged? Oh, come on.
Dealing with management is appropriate, as I would encourage all in the dining public who are not satisfied with food and/or service. If management ignores the feedback, then that is entirely another matter.
If I seemed to be insincere, as accused, in my brief missive, then I apologize for the mistaken impression. I know and respect My Mom as a professional when I knew her fine work in the food service industry, and I know how professionals like Mom prefer to be treated.
Not every restaurant has a good day; some have more bad days than good. There is, regrettably, a serious shortage of good servers.
Those patrons who suggest restaurateurs should somehow intuit how customers feel in the absence of constructive feedback are, I submit, not being fair to restaurateurs.
And, really, that's the point I'm making to all casual readers of this forum -- whether it's a restaurant, or the local convenience store.
I applaud My Mom for writing to the restaurant involved, and merely suggest to others that this is the most appropriate recourse.
Kind regards to all,
Omnivore Ron
2008 Aug 28
I won't on comment on much of what you said Ron as many of your other points had to do with what other people had to say.
But will make a point about this statement: "Those patrons who suggest restaurateurs should somehow intuit how customers feel in the absence of constructive feedback are, I submit, not being fair to restaurateurs."
Simply and directly put: Its not my job to be fair to them nor is it my responsibility. They are in business. They are taking my money and that's all I owe them.
If I want to talk to them about a failure, I will. But if I simply want to come on here and pan them, that's the nature of the business they chose. I often do raise issues when I get bad service etc. but not always.
Cheers
But will make a point about this statement: "Those patrons who suggest restaurateurs should somehow intuit how customers feel in the absence of constructive feedback are, I submit, not being fair to restaurateurs."
Simply and directly put: Its not my job to be fair to them nor is it my responsibility. They are in business. They are taking my money and that's all I owe them.
If I want to talk to them about a failure, I will. But if I simply want to come on here and pan them, that's the nature of the business they chose. I often do raise issues when I get bad service etc. but not always.
Cheers
2008 Aug 28
To the last post, with respect, I think your approach is unfair.
Just to pan a restaurateur anonymously on the Internet is too easy -- no checks, no balances, no accountability.
I know, I am opening myself up to more slagging, but I believe fair should be fair. The difference is, I am not ashamed to put my name to this post. You know who I am. The other nameless people, well, they just slag ...
Ron
Just to pan a restaurateur anonymously on the Internet is too easy -- no checks, no balances, no accountability.
I know, I am opening myself up to more slagging, but I believe fair should be fair. The difference is, I am not ashamed to put my name to this post. You know who I am. The other nameless people, well, they just slag ...
Ron
2008 Aug 28
Citizen Ron, i agree to a certain extent that its easier and there's less (different?) accountability for "nameless" individuals to "slag" restaurants. But, many (most?) review sites have their own self-correcting checks and balances, and users (like pollsters) know to skim off the extremes. Ottawa Foodies is no different in that sense.
And, in any case, fairness is relative. Not everyone is endowed w/ the courage, or the social skills, or the language capacity (or whatever) to seek redress in the manner you describe.
btw, i didn't take offense to your original post; i can understand PIO's response, but i simply read your post as an articulation of how you would do things. No biggie.
And, in any case, fairness is relative. Not everyone is endowed w/ the courage, or the social skills, or the language capacity (or whatever) to seek redress in the manner you describe.
btw, i didn't take offense to your original post; i can understand PIO's response, but i simply read your post as an articulation of how you would do things. No biggie.
2008 Aug 29
I really don't think it's unfair to relay what happened during a visit to a restaurant via the internet. If the reviewer takes untruthful liberties or states assumptions as fact, then yes, it would be unfair, however I see nothing wrong with describing one's experience truthfully. Obviously there are people who use the anonimity of the internet to "flame" restaurants due to personal vendettas, however this is usually the exception and not the rule. Also, it's not true that there is absolutely no checks, ballences or accountabiity on internet reviews - if someone is being unfair (ie: rude comments towards other reviewers, flaming with no back-up information, clear shills etc.) you'd better believe that people are going to reply and comment - it's true that there's no DIRECT accountability for the perp; they don't HAVE to read the replys after all, however the review itself is always open to criticism and rebuttal by others if it is not a fair review.
2008 Aug 29
Hi Ron,
One of your sticking points seems to be anonymity. I don't have any illusions that what I post here is anonymous. It wouldn't take that much effort for someone with a bit of web savvy to track down my identity.
Nevermind that many posters here have actual pictures of themselves as avatars. That is anonymous how exactly?
Would you be more accepting of negative comments if the poster in question revealed his or her full name in their profile?
I dunno, I guess the old internet saw about hiding behind one's keyboard in order to discredit an opinion is getting a little old with me.
One of your sticking points seems to be anonymity. I don't have any illusions that what I post here is anonymous. It wouldn't take that much effort for someone with a bit of web savvy to track down my identity.
Nevermind that many posters here have actual pictures of themselves as avatars. That is anonymous how exactly?
Would you be more accepting of negative comments if the poster in question revealed his or her full name in their profile?
I dunno, I guess the old internet saw about hiding behind one's keyboard in order to discredit an opinion is getting a little old with me.
2008 Aug 29
I agree with Food is Hot.. there is nothing unfair about people relaying what their experience at the restaurant was.
If you go in business and open a restaurant, you have to offer good food/service to who is going to be writing your paychecks. (the clients)
If a restaurant offers terrible service and a bad dining experience, then we'll rapidly see this on this site (or other similar sites) with the "not so good" reviews. Is that unfair? i don't think so, because you can also get the opposite. Look at Ottawafoodies' top 10. I'm sure those restaurants benefit from all the raving reviews they are getting. Difference is, they're offering something that clients want (good service/good food).
I guess it's only unfair to those in the business that really have something to worry about.
If you go in business and open a restaurant, you have to offer good food/service to who is going to be writing your paychecks. (the clients)
If a restaurant offers terrible service and a bad dining experience, then we'll rapidly see this on this site (or other similar sites) with the "not so good" reviews. Is that unfair? i don't think so, because you can also get the opposite. Look at Ottawafoodies' top 10. I'm sure those restaurants benefit from all the raving reviews they are getting. Difference is, they're offering something that clients want (good service/good food).
I guess it's only unfair to those in the business that really have something to worry about.
2008 Aug 29
A hearty Thank You to Ron, as I've been given a bit of a chuckle by this thread. As FreshFoodie so succinctly put it, discretion would have me raising my eyebrow, but perhaps I can keep my voice silent, half raise my eyebrow, and raise my pen? Ron has raised quite the list of mistaken impressions, mistaken grievances, and mistaken methodology for dealing with the aforementioned mistakes. I've had trouble keeping track, so I've made a wee list of things to address, with respect to what he has written in his posts of this thread.
1. You (Ron) have only been accused of writing an arrogant, belittling, and disingenuous posting. You added, inflammatory, and insincere. I will address these momentarily.
2. 'Vitriolic Fervor' This accusation I find a little sensationalist. The flavour of discussion has hardly been vitriolic, and I think we can agree to leave the sulfurous emanations to the Mexican Food thread ;-)
3. 'Shielded by the anonymity of the Internet' I think MedicineJar and SteffQc have shown this to be a non sequitur. The main core of users of this web site is about 50 people (forgive me if I mis-spoke here FreshFoodie), and about 25% of those know my real name, and I know theirs. I personally do not hide my name from people, but just try to generally protect it from the Internet at large. Any person, or vendor here is more than welcome to send me a message asking for contact info, and I will provide it. Although many here know who you are, it is fun to note (for me at least) that you have also chosen to hide your real name from your profile, which would almost make you a hypocrite. I'm not sure how you can say "The difference is, I am not ashamed to put my name to this post. You know who I am." Hmm.. local celebrity perhaps, but I'll file that one under the arrogant tag I promised to address above. Feel free to IM me for my personal contact info.
4. Disingenuous? YES. You obviously didn't think you'd get the response that you did, when you thought you could casually slap FoodieMom on the wrist.
5. Disingenuous and Belittling - Lets examine your choice of words in your original post.
---> 'disappointing experience' This phrase implies that it was FoodieMom's perception of the evening that was the problem, and not the restaurant's service. A barely clever indirection (i.e. disingenuous).
---> 'think it would be prudent' Ah.. prudence. What a word. So if she wasn't prudent, she must have been imprudent, or 'wanting in discretion, not attentive to consequence'. So if we just rephrase your comment, it comes out like this : "I think if you don't address your concerns to the proprietors directly, it will show your lack of discretion, and may expose you to consequence" That dear sir sounds to me very paternalistic and belittling. Was it intentional, I guess only you can answer that one, but so far you have refused to accept any consequence from your choice of words.
6. Insinuate personal discredit? Absolutely. From one side of your mouth you talk about your respect for FoodieMom as a professional, but from the other you are quite clear she is not professional enough to know when NOT to comment in public about another restaurateur. You further propogate this with your second comment "My original post on this thread was to merely reinforce to My Mom is A Foodie the need to follow-up". Exactly why do YOU need to reinforce the need for FoodieMom to do anything? Perhaps you know more than her? I think I also add the paternalistic tag to this one.
7. Dealing with management is appropriate? Could you say less with more words? I'm just glad you only wasted 5 words of my time.
8. You weren't accused of being insincere, so you can't really apologize for it. Of course you didn't actually apologize, you did as I predicted you would, and you apologized for the 'mistaken impression' we had. I for one feel much better that my mistaken impressions have been apologized for.
9. You imply that restaurants have good days and bad days, and that we should just expect that. That is also disingenuous. Show me a bad day at Beckta? Show me a bad day at Baccara? Show me a bad day at Signatures? I can only wish my every restaurant experience was as good as a bad day at Baccara.
11. You say: "...My Mom as a professional when I knew her fine work in the food service industry, and I know how professionals like Mom prefer to be treated." I'll be generous and put this under the paternalistic, and arrogant tags, but to be honest, it borders on mildly threatening (no, not terrorist threatening, but just 'there will be consequence' threatening. Perhaps you are right that she may be treated differently after such a post, but is it your place to correct her in this matter?
12. A nameless person who just slags? The only thing I am slagging here is the impudence of your writing, although if you want to call it a slag, I'll take that as a compliment. (once again, IM me if you would like contact info)
I'm afraid that this time, I was unable to completely follow FreshFoodie's advice of the raised eyebrow, but I promise I'll try harder next time.
1. You (Ron) have only been accused of writing an arrogant, belittling, and disingenuous posting. You added, inflammatory, and insincere. I will address these momentarily.
2. 'Vitriolic Fervor' This accusation I find a little sensationalist. The flavour of discussion has hardly been vitriolic, and I think we can agree to leave the sulfurous emanations to the Mexican Food thread ;-)
3. 'Shielded by the anonymity of the Internet' I think MedicineJar and SteffQc have shown this to be a non sequitur. The main core of users of this web site is about 50 people (forgive me if I mis-spoke here FreshFoodie), and about 25% of those know my real name, and I know theirs. I personally do not hide my name from people, but just try to generally protect it from the Internet at large. Any person, or vendor here is more than welcome to send me a message asking for contact info, and I will provide it. Although many here know who you are, it is fun to note (for me at least) that you have also chosen to hide your real name from your profile, which would almost make you a hypocrite. I'm not sure how you can say "The difference is, I am not ashamed to put my name to this post. You know who I am." Hmm.. local celebrity perhaps, but I'll file that one under the arrogant tag I promised to address above. Feel free to IM me for my personal contact info.
4. Disingenuous? YES. You obviously didn't think you'd get the response that you did, when you thought you could casually slap FoodieMom on the wrist.
5. Disingenuous and Belittling - Lets examine your choice of words in your original post.
---> 'disappointing experience' This phrase implies that it was FoodieMom's perception of the evening that was the problem, and not the restaurant's service. A barely clever indirection (i.e. disingenuous).
---> 'think it would be prudent' Ah.. prudence. What a word. So if she wasn't prudent, she must have been imprudent, or 'wanting in discretion, not attentive to consequence'. So if we just rephrase your comment, it comes out like this : "I think if you don't address your concerns to the proprietors directly, it will show your lack of discretion, and may expose you to consequence" That dear sir sounds to me very paternalistic and belittling. Was it intentional, I guess only you can answer that one, but so far you have refused to accept any consequence from your choice of words.
6. Insinuate personal discredit? Absolutely. From one side of your mouth you talk about your respect for FoodieMom as a professional, but from the other you are quite clear she is not professional enough to know when NOT to comment in public about another restaurateur. You further propogate this with your second comment "My original post on this thread was to merely reinforce to My Mom is A Foodie the need to follow-up". Exactly why do YOU need to reinforce the need for FoodieMom to do anything? Perhaps you know more than her? I think I also add the paternalistic tag to this one.
7. Dealing with management is appropriate? Could you say less with more words? I'm just glad you only wasted 5 words of my time.
8. You weren't accused of being insincere, so you can't really apologize for it. Of course you didn't actually apologize, you did as I predicted you would, and you apologized for the 'mistaken impression' we had. I for one feel much better that my mistaken impressions have been apologized for.
9. You imply that restaurants have good days and bad days, and that we should just expect that. That is also disingenuous. Show me a bad day at Beckta? Show me a bad day at Baccara? Show me a bad day at Signatures? I can only wish my every restaurant experience was as good as a bad day at Baccara.
11. You say: "...My Mom as a professional when I knew her fine work in the food service industry, and I know how professionals like Mom prefer to be treated." I'll be generous and put this under the paternalistic, and arrogant tags, but to be honest, it borders on mildly threatening (no, not terrorist threatening, but just 'there will be consequence' threatening. Perhaps you are right that she may be treated differently after such a post, but is it your place to correct her in this matter?
12. A nameless person who just slags? The only thing I am slagging here is the impudence of your writing, although if you want to call it a slag, I'll take that as a compliment. (once again, IM me if you would like contact info)
I'm afraid that this time, I was unable to completely follow FreshFoodie's advice of the raised eyebrow, but I promise I'll try harder next time.
2008 Aug 29
Geez I think my vocabulary just grew exponentially after reading some of these posts.
Isn't the fundamental purpose of this site to share your foodie experiences? I've never really submitted any scathing reviews, but I like to share my thoughts whether they be positive or negative.
That being said, I know Fresh Foodie has a mandate to keep the reviews positive ("people want to know where to find good food, not bad food") but I feel it's a critical component of a 'reviews' site to include both the good and the bad. Restaurant experiences are so subjective anyways. All I ask is one thing - let's not turn this into Restaurant Thing with one liner slags. At the very least give a thorough review of your experience. "My Mom's a Foodie" did this, I see no problem with her review.
Somewhat off topic but this site has so many tools that people don't take advantage of like the voting system, or even submitting comments/reviews for vendors. There are many active forum users that have very little votes, or vendor/food reviews. I mean the top 3 vendors on this site have approx 30 votes! That's a small sample size deciding who is the BEST in Ottawa if you ask me. The more people contribute (positive or negative) the better picture we get of a restaurant or vendor.
Isn't the fundamental purpose of this site to share your foodie experiences? I've never really submitted any scathing reviews, but I like to share my thoughts whether they be positive or negative.
That being said, I know Fresh Foodie has a mandate to keep the reviews positive ("people want to know where to find good food, not bad food") but I feel it's a critical component of a 'reviews' site to include both the good and the bad. Restaurant experiences are so subjective anyways. All I ask is one thing - let's not turn this into Restaurant Thing with one liner slags. At the very least give a thorough review of your experience. "My Mom's a Foodie" did this, I see no problem with her review.
Somewhat off topic but this site has so many tools that people don't take advantage of like the voting system, or even submitting comments/reviews for vendors. There are many active forum users that have very little votes, or vendor/food reviews. I mean the top 3 vendors on this site have approx 30 votes! That's a small sample size deciding who is the BEST in Ottawa if you ask me. The more people contribute (positive or negative) the better picture we get of a restaurant or vendor.
2008 Aug 29
Did someone just break a two week old post down word for word and then provide mean-spirited, hyperbolic commentary the whole way through? And people agree with it? I'm almost without words...
I can't imagine why a relatively innocuous poster would be so savagely attacked ...and the site certainly has lost a user (and a professional food writer at that). Congrats, vendetta served.
I suppose I can now expect torrents of wordy scorn. Ha ha
I can't imagine why a relatively innocuous poster would be so savagely attacked ...and the site certainly has lost a user (and a professional food writer at that). Congrats, vendetta served.
I suppose I can now expect torrents of wordy scorn. Ha ha
2008 Aug 29
FIH: My apologies, I should have chosen my words more accurately. I guess I feel that it is dangerous to parse other's words on a website that should ultimately be a fun place to visit. I really had no interest in exacerbating any existing conflict, in hindsight I would take the post down if I could...
2008 Aug 29
No worries - it would just be a shame if you let an "arguement" that is between just 2 or 3 people cloud your view of this online community. The general population of the site enjoys a friendly debate for certain, and hey, where there is debate, there will always be people that rub each other the wrong way. Not unusual for the internet - I stack it to the fact that foodies are passionate people who are passionate about thier likes and dislikes when it comes to food. I really think this is a great site and an awesome source for food information and community- I urge you not to allow one forum post that you don't agree with drive you away :)
2008 Aug 29
FIH - Great Advice!
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Could we please CLOSE this Thread and move to PART II for the sake of everyone.
At over 60 posts and graphics, in Browse this now takes some users over 3 minutes to load.
(We've had this discussion before, that it is curteous to all users to open a PART II when a Thread exceeds 50)
Thanks
--- --- ---
Could we please CLOSE this Thread and move to PART II for the sake of everyone.
At over 60 posts and graphics, in Browse this now takes some users over 3 minutes to load.
(We've had this discussion before, that it is curteous to all users to open a PART II when a Thread exceeds 50)
Thanks
2008 Aug 29
F&T - Fresh Foodie coded thread streamliner to combat this. When I open the thread it shows "61 posts are being hidden to streamline your experience. Click here to see everything" and everything loads up quite quickly.
Are you on dialup internet? If so, you're probably cursing Captain Captain for all his damn photos :P
edit - I just clicked 'view all' and the entire thread loaded immediately. I'm using Firefox 3.0.1
Are you on dialup internet? If so, you're probably cursing Captain Captain for all his damn photos :P
edit - I just clicked 'view all' and the entire thread loaded immediately. I'm using Firefox 3.0.1
2008 Aug 29
Monty - Streamliner works for registered users... not for non registered readers, or if one is in browse mode vs logged in (like at work etc). Plus not everyone accesses this site via a computer, some people browse via their blackberries, phones, etc.
As for slow load, well that is definitely partially Captain CAPER's domain.
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Now could we PLEEEEASE... pretty please move to PART II.
:-)
As for slow load, well that is definitely partially Captain CAPER's domain.
--- --- ---
Now could we PLEEEEASE... pretty please move to PART II.
:-)
My Mom's a Foodie
After being seated our waiter greeted us with little enthusiasm as when speaking to us was looking at every customer but us. When asked about something on menu he told us to hold on a second, walked away and straightened the table next to us, of which no one was sitting at. Might I add that our table was on such a horrible slant that my friends wine glass would periodically slide down, almost off the table numerous times but he didn't seem to be concerned about the table in actual use?
When delivering our drinks he dropped them off at our table and told us he would be back in a bit to pour the wine into the glasses as he had to deliver a few other drinks to another table? Very awkward as the drinks he was delivering to the other table required no pouring so why were they not delivered first?
The cutlery for our main courses were almost thrown down in front of us without a word.
Throughout the night he made many strange and in appropriate comments. One of the ones I particularly remember was when he insulted me after my main courses we delivered. I had tried a few of the vegetables and was chatting so I had not yet cut into my beef tenderloin. When he walked by asking how everything was, without even stopping I might add, he said 'oh I see you are just smelling your dinner' and walked away laughing? By this point we were all at the point where the 'Social' experience was in very poor taste!
Another drink was ordered and forgotten. When reminded, very politely I might add, he didn't even apologize? When it was finally delivered he went to walk away and I had to call him back to remove our plates, which had been finished now for at least 10 minutes.
A long period of time passed after this, all with empty drinks and a dessert menu which had been delivered long ago he finally returned and we asked for the bill.
We all paid with credit cards and when he delivered the final bills he handed out one bill and then said to us that we could disburse the rest of them almost annoyed and walked away?
We all decided to leave 10% which upon further reflection should not have even happened. 0% and a conversation with the manager was what we should have done but I didn't want to put a damper on the evening. Although I am sending the manager a letter addressing our experience so hopefully this doesn't happen to someone else. It is a nice space and I know they try hard with their food so it is always disappointing when the service is as such.
Just want to add that we then decided to go to The Whalesbone for dessert and drinks where as usual the service was fantastic and very personable!