ottawa foodies

So... what do you all think of this? www.ottawaxpress.ca

Here's the response I posted (we'll have to wait to see if it passes their moderation process):

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Thanks for this article. It's nice to see the online foodie world given mention in the press!

I'm the creator of OttawaFoodies.com, a local food discussion site that has flourished since its launch in autumn of 2006. To my knowledge, we are the only Ottawa-based online community that caters (pun intended) to all things foodie.

Your article mentions "foodie" sites in general, yet all of the Coriander Thai comments you question come from The Restaurant Thing. That site has been around for a good decade and has established itself as a stomping ground for many amateur restaurant critics. However, since its area of coverage is restricted to restaurant reviews I would hesitate to describe it as a foodie site.

I was recently contacted by a friendly Xpress photographer to do some shots for potential inclusion in this article and was therefore able to sample the same three dishes covered by your review. (He was seeking prolific online contributers for an in-restaurant photoshoot.) The comments I posted online later that night matched Simon's right down to the use of the phrase "perfectly pleasant!" A little ironic, given the headline of this article, don't you think? :-)

In the interest of full disclosure, here are the reviews of Coriander Thai from the two sites in question:

Ottawa Foodies: ottawafoodies.com/vendor/201
The Restaurant Thing: restaurantthing.com

As a final note, I agree fully that professional reviews are immensely useful. In fact, I regularly link to Xpress reviews from my site. However, differences of opinion are not the sole domain of online reviewers. I've seen pro reviewers disagree quite heartily -- even Ottawa Xpress reviews do not always mesh with the Anne DesBrisays of our world. The only real weakness of online reviews is also their undeniable strength: two-way communication means everyone gets a voice.
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And yes, that's me in the photo. My hand is famous! ;-)

I had higher expectations than to see all the local online forums painted with the same brush. Mark has put so much thought into making sure that this site doesn't become a hotbed of shilling, restaurant "fluffing" or axe-grinding. I think you deserved better, FF.

Wow, I guess that wasn't the article you were expecting was it Mark!

Interesting criticism coming from the Ottawa XPress. I've often wondered why they don't hire better writers to do their reviews, many of them filled with slang and casual writing. The last word I would use is "professional".

This reviewer in particular has a penchant for name dropping his pal "KCDC" 2 or 3 times per review as if we the readership are supposed to know who this person is. Usually turns me off and I flip the page. Oh well.

Maybe its just me, and perhaps I am over-reacting...

BUT I'd be looking for some sort of an apology. Mark, you generously came out for the photo shoot and got involved enough to even order the same food dishes that the "food critic" from Xpress did (later posting an online review on this "your" community website, and in the interest of sharing local food info). And no doubt in the process of the time that you spent with the photographer (and anyone else from Xpress) said only good things about the website Ottawa Foodies (as you always do) and as all of posters here believe in and are proud of. Now the article appears and whitewashes online foodie sites as being something less than real in their intentions. Now that in itself would cheese me off (the generalization), BUT to top it off this article that states this as "fact" clearly features a photo of yourself (albeit just your hand) and a clear picture of the computer featuring Ottawa Foodies Website (thereby IMO by association paints this website with a very heavy coat of thick paint, while at the sametime fails to jeopardize any other websites dedicated to restaurant review things).

I'm sorry Mark, I've think you've been had, intentionally, or unintentionally I don't know. BUT in my mind someone clearly owes you (and Ottawa Foodies ) an apology!

NOTE - Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Photographer led you on, it could just have been a Editorial decision. But someone IMO screwed up big time, and that isn't professional (or right).

I don't know, I don't see why being able to read a variety of people's experiences (whether good or bad) is a bad thing? Sounds like Simon Osborne doesn't like it when other people have varied experiences from his own at the same restaurants... I think it's fair to say that a restaurant can attract a variety of different reviews in a 10 year period, as well. If someone reads a review that's quite dated, I'd hope they take it with a grain of salt.

Other people have already mentioned it, but I'll second it as well, Simon clearly did not identify which online communities he was referring to (while showing the Ottawafoodies website in the photo - referencing the Restaurantthing website in the article but not clearly, it's misleading). There are plenty: Chowhound, Ottawafoodies, Restaurantthing, various Ottawa foodie blogs, Ottawa Cheapeats, Facebook groups, etc. I'm going to shut my trap now before I start slandering the Xpress, oh wait, I feel an urge to go to the washroom... I wonder if I have a copy of it kicking around by the loo... hmm...

Edit: Having checked the restaurantthing website, overall, Coriander thai gets a 7.1/10, which is a moderately good overall score, no?

Reading the article, it sounds like the author has just visited Coriander Thai once. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to pass judgement on others' reviews if that's the case. Even professional reviewers like Anne deBrisay make it clear that she visits restaurants multiple times before writing her reviews. I'm not sure why the author thinks his one-visit review (if that's the case) is any more valid than any of the others floating around on the Internet. Experiences differ from person to person and from day to day, and that's why online sites can be so useful if you use appropriate caution. I like Coriander Thai and my experiences there have been positive for what that's worth but I wouldn't use them to dismiss anyone else's.

That last throw-away line "OMG kidding you guys" makes me wonder why he brought it up in the first place if he seems to be admitting that he's not making any particular point. Let's just say it's not going to win a Pulitzer.

If I were cynical, I'd say that Mr. Simon Osborne is taking a cheap stab, at what is essentially his competition (as a food reviewer for a publication, online reviews are his competition). If I were less cynical, I'd say that the type of online user that he represents is akin to going to Big Daddy's on a Thursday night looking for a one night stand. He thinks that, a site like OttawaFoodies is just a review site, where a stranger can just 'hit and run' a few reviews, and be guaranteed a good experience. He alludes to the fact that OttawaFoodies (and others) are online communities, but then discards all that that entails with his further criticism. For me, the value of the online community, is the same as the offline one, in that I get to know people, learn their likes and dislikes (Let's start another Moxies thread.. ok.. just kidding) and then through participation in the community be able to better experience the Epicurean Ottawa. I think it's naive, and a disservice to XPress readers to pretend that reading one or two anonymous reviews will give you insight into the true quality of an eating establishment, or by extension the quality of the website the information was found on. If XPress required moderation like Slashdot does (sorry.. techie reference) his narrow opinions, and seemingly self serving rhetoric would have never made it to the front page.

Just one man's opinion...

I didn't find him overly critical, and like PiO says I found that mainly he just has no clue how to use an online review site like this.

I submitted a comment as well based on my reading of the article. You will find it below. I will add one tidbit of information. I know someone that was involved in the food reviews for Ottawa Xpress. They did not have good things to say. My overall perception of the publication is not too high and I theonly time I ever read the food articles was when I knew someone that was involved.

Cheers

There is a wide divergence online opinion for just about any restaurant but I personally prefer the internet reviews to the supposed professional ones. When looking at reviews for any restaurant I ask myself - Are 7-9 out of 10 reviews fairly positive? I recognize that any restaurant can have a bad night leading to a bad review. As well, people have different experiences of a restaurant and they have different likes and dislikes. In short, online reviews are far from objective but a good restaurant is likely to garner favourable reviews from most people.

In contrast, I view most professional reviews as simply one review and I do not see it as gospel. Moreover, I am seldom convinced that professional reviewers know more about food, cooking and restaurants than I do. This is not to suggest infinite gastronomical wisdom on my part, as much as it is to say that some professional reviewers are not adequately qualified to write reviews in my opinion.

You half jokingly state that "food criticism is best left to the professionals". The problem is that I am almost certain you are only half joking. In my reading of your article, I detect the implicit assumption that your reviews are somehow above all the differences in people's experience and their own personal likes and dislikes. In short, I get the impression that you see yourself as an objective reviewer. While you may be a professional, I would not get too carried away. Its important to remember that you are writing for Ottawa XPress and that you are not Frank Bruni of the New York Times.

Finally, I would suggest you have constructed a strawman argument with regards to online reviews. I have written several online reviews and all but one of them are reasonably positive.

Cheers

"food criticism is best left to the professionals"

That's one of the worst lines I've heard in a long time. Most of us are not professional eaters. I would rather hear the opinions of a dozen "regular" people than one simply one professional. In an online community, we are fortunate enough to have a range of different tastes and preferences, and once you've spent enough time on a site such as this, you can discern which reviews or reviewers to take seriously or not based on what the complaints may be.

By having a professional roam around town giving reviews, they will eventually lose their anonymity, which may lead to greater attention at a restaurant, where more care could be given to their service and food. Online reviewers are just regular folks, usually pretty genuine about their opinions for that particular visit.

I am amused that so far, none of your comments have appeared with the article.

Edited to add: I added a comment asking the writer to let us all know what his professional qualifications are as a food writer. Does he have culinary training or is he just a food lover like the rest of us?

Full disclosure to you guys: I *could* be considered a 'professional food critic' since I write reviews for foodtv.ca's blog. However, I don't REALLY consider myself a professional (I mean, really. I'm not.). I just like food. I don't have any formal training as a chef or restaurateur and freely admit that if people ask. And I certainly don't think restaurant reviews should be left only to 'the professionals'. Besides, the pros often ignore the interesting hole-in-the-wall places and make a b-line for the Susurs and the Becktas of the world. And we can't all survive on 200 dollar dinners alone. ;)

My comment on the article has finally been approved. A little longer than the promised 24 hours, but better late than never. I would have been quite bothered if they hadn't published it so this makes me very happy. Hopefully they publish some others too!

There are more comments up now, you might all be interested to read them. :)

Mine got on as well. Now I can sleep at nights.

"There are more comments up now, you might all be interested to read them. :)"

Yeah, so which one of you is Simon then?

I betcha this Ottawa Foodie knows who Simon is.

Link ---> ottawafoodies.com/u/963 <---

His name is Ben, not Simon. Also it seems that he is the photographer, not the writer. Will the real Simon please stand up?

Well, I'm not Simon! Hmm, it's witch hunt time.

(KIDDING KIDDING!)

Seriously though, I appreciated that he took the time to reply to the comments, and that the content owned up to a few mistakes made by the article. Cheers. :)

Well, that is true Candice, but your comments and his response will only be seen by the people who read the online version, unlike the original article which appeared in print.

I was amused that your challenge to his qualifications was not taken up.

Mousseline: I was too. ;)

As I've said before, the only difference between a professional and an amateur is that the professional gets paid. Is that a big difference? Sometimes. Regardless, since I presume Simon is paid for his reviews I think he can safely refer to himself as a professional.

I'm very pleased with Simon's response in the Xpress. Does anyone know if it made it into today's print version? They say that some comments do appear in print...

Anyways, thanks Simon! I'll continue to read the Xpress reviews. :-)

I know I am a week behind here but WOW, the last line of the review is harsh!

The article started out fair as far as reviews go though the end I find somewhat ironic as I turned to the Ottawa Foodies site for food reviews & food scene chatter that I couldn't find in print.

Regardless of what he was trying to do writing such a comment I will continue to 'surf' for my foodie knowledge of what is happening & where to find it.

Theres nothing worse than someone who gets paid to eat and then decide if its good or not. Professional they arnt, they are scum, I know of family restaurants closed down after poor reviews, knowing that the food was ok. The worst human being in this world is called AA Gill, hes a complete arse. Criticisms from a site like this however are constructive, they arnt aggressive and has input from everyone, if there is a general theme in the criticism then its probable true but not enough to damage the business.

Harveyshideout, I think you'll find that professional reviewers (unlike online reviewers) do not make negative comments lightly. If they have a bad experience, they will give the place a second chance. Every restaurant can have a bad day and the reviewers know that. Maybe not all of them, but most!

They most definitely will try to give the restaurant a chance. The Citizen's review of the Mill a few years ago comes to mind. If I remember correctly, Anne's experience was so bad that she went back something like 6 times, just to make sure that it just wasn't an off day.

Although I was (am) ticked with the way the Ottawa Xpress Reviewer maligned on-line reviews in general (and by association Ottawa Foodies - see my previous comments above). I do believe that there is truly a place for both Print Reviews and On-Line Reviews, both Professional (paid for) Food Critics and the Arm-Chair Variety.

As Fresh Foodie & Nanook has stated most Professional Food Critics are aware that their "opinion" will have an effect on a Restaurant, so much so, that Anne DeBrisay has stated that she will go to a place 3 times before writing a review, so that she can evaluate a variety of things and average out the experience (lunch, dinner, dinner with friends, different foods, service, staff knowledge etc). And yes, I recall that as Nanook has mentioned that she said giving The Mill the terrible review (that had to happen), was one of the hardest things in her career. I personally want a Professional Food Critic that has a conscience, afterall, a Bad Review can indeed hurt a business, and in the worst case close a business, and put a lot of people out of work (kitchen staff, waiters, bartenders, hostesses... people who in many cases have very little to do with the direction Management has chosen to take).

As for On-Line Armchair Critics, I think that they bring some earthiness to the discussion of food. Less snooty, and common everyday language. And one can read many reviews at once and average out for themselves what they think of a place and whether they might want to visit an establishment. By that measure, I also believe that it is ok for one individual, to also post multiple reviews about a single location, as every experience may be very different, or your food choices could be different from the last time.

The sad thing I think about on-line reviews is the possibility of an employee or employees (Shillers), posting reviews to boost their ratings. But as Fresh Foodie has said he believes we'd all be smart enough to figure this out for ourselves. The most disappointing thing for me as an on-line review reader however is when someone (usually a newbie) slams a restaurant harshly (and worse if they never come back to explain exactly what ticked them off). I feel that sometimes these heavy handed reviews are out right attacks, and unfortunately they carry more weight with an on-line visitor (someone who just drops by for a browse to choose a place to eat with friends on Saturday Night). Because the reviewer has been angry and the wording is so powerful, I think that the words carry more weight than say the exact opposite when done by a Shiller. For this reason, I refer to both of these individuals as the Hit & Runs, and quite frankly I'd like to see less of them.