Vegetarianism [General]

2007 Apr 25
[In response to zymurgist's comment in the Chinese Cooking Class topic about vegetarians who eat seafood not being vegetarian...]

zymurgist, you're technically correct, but... there are different levels of "devotion" when it comes to vegetarians. Given that even vegetarians will accidentally consume insects while eating vegetables (or riding a bike) there's no such thing as a 100% vegetarian. It's a bit like religion -- would you say someone isn't Catholic if they eat meat on a Friday or would you say someone isn't Jewish if they like bacon? The "loosest" vegetarians simply avoid red meat. I don't consider that to be vegetarianism at all but some people do. Good for them, it doesn't bother me! :)

We had a house guest this weekend past who was vegetarian. When I pulled out the dessert pie, it suddenly struck me that the crust was made with lard and would not do for a vegetarian. I pointed this out and she laughed and said that doesn't bother her! I replied that I could be a vegetarian too if I were allowed to eat pork fat and bacon! ;-)

2007 Apr 25
"zymurgist, you're technically correct, but..."

Technically correct is still correct. ;)

I think there are a number of reasons to keep the definition clear. Not least of which is to prevent giving non-vegetarians the wrong idea about what vegetarianism is all about. When I was vegetarian I always took offence to those who wanted the label but didn't want to walk the walk. When I started eating fishing again I stopped identifying as a vegetarian. Why be something you're not?



2007 Apr 25
So what you're saying is if a person doesn't follow the vegetarian doctrine 100% then they aren't vegetarian. As devil's advocate, and in reference to my religion analogy, I would say this might be the view of a "fundamentalist" vegetarian. :)

Of course, if vegetarianism *is* like a religion then it will be impossible to argue differing views on it without stirring up conflict. hahaha!

2007 Apr 26
You've got me pegged. Is fundamentalist a dirty word? :)



2007 Apr 26
Personally I don't think it's really a matter that's open to a whole lot of debate. If you eat animals you aren't vegetarian. It's like saying "what is a house"? If some points to a car, it doesn't make me a "fundamentalist housarian" if I say "that's not a house". It just is what it is.

Though if you wanted to debate - a vegetarian friend of mine's rule was "anything with a face". That's a very good start I'd say. You can quibble about things like milk and eggs (less so the eggs IMO - it's an animal embryo), but if you are eating something with a face I think that pretty much bumps you out of the club.

2007 Apr 26
Agree with zymurgist 100%.

If chicken and seafood is ok, then you just don't eat red meat, you are not a vegetarian.

Vegetarians do not eat anything that is the result of the death of an animal (this includes mammals, fowl, fish etc) It's just that simple. And it's annoying as a vegetarian to be hounded by people saying, "But you can eat CHICKEN right? I mean so and so is a vegetarian and THEY can still eat chicken!" Well then so and so is NOT a vegetarian. And that's OK!

But these words have meaning. I brought this up to share the meaning of vegetarian so a fewer number of vegetarians order something up with a big hunk of meat in it because so and so the 'vegetarian' eats chicken.

2007 Apr 26
I was a vegetarian at breakfast today. I won't be one at lunch.

How about that? :-)

2007 Apr 26
Actually, it's interesting how there's never any ambiguity about veganism. Everyone knows that a vegan won't touch meat, eggs, milk, honey, etc.

But many self-proclaimed vegetarians will eat seafood. I'm guessing they call themselves vegetarian because if you tell someone you're pescetarian they just look at you funny.

I could see the appeal of being someone who just skips red meat -- an ovo-lacto-pesco-porco-pollo-vegetarian! ;-)

2007 Apr 26
I used to be a full vegetarian, bordering on vegan (I never could cut out cheese completely, but I tried!). It did bug me when people assumed they could cook me chicken or fish because some 'vegetarians' eat it. It was frustrating when eating out or going to someone else's home for dinner. I was always very sensitive to the issue and usually offered to make something to bring and share, but often they'd insist they could make me something and not to worry about it. Then I'd get there and the dish would be fish or chicken...

These days I do eat fish, so I call myself someone who prefers to follow a vegetarian diet but does eat fish at times. I'm NOT a vegetarian anymore. I'd call those who eat chicken or fish the same: people who like to follow a vegetarian diet but who are not vegetarian.

To follow with the religion analogy, I know some former Catholics who are now 'Easter and Christmas' Catholics. If asked about their religion, they say they were raised Catholic but don't really follow anymore. Same sort of idea for those chicken-and-fish-eating 'vegetarians'. They are interested in a vegetarian diet but only follow it sometimes. :)

2007 Apr 26
Oh, and what Mark just said is right: I don't call myself a pescetarian because no one knows what that means. It's easier to explain it in terms of vegetarian + fish.

2007 Apr 26
Interesting fact that I found out during my wine course - many wines are filtered with animal blood during the fermentation process. There is no way to tell if the winery uses blood just by looking at the label, so you would have to do research on the specific winery to know for sure. Vegetarians beware.

2007 Apr 26
I'm vegan, but I don't really care what others eat or don't eat. My biggest complaint with blurring the line about what is or isn't vegan or vegetarian is that it makes it harder for the rest of us who stick to the absolute definitions. I'm sure that I've eaten meat broth or fats in restaurants or at friends' and acquaintances' homes because others who profess to be vegetarian make exceptions. Other than this selfish and practical reason, I don't care who uses the labels.

2007 Apr 26
Beer is often fined (clarified) with fish bladders, too. Especially British Beers.

And of course most cheese is made with rennet which comes from killing a calf and extracting it from it's stomach.

Vegematarians beware!

I used to be ovo-lacto for 3 years during university. But then I moved to the Soviet Union and ate whatever I could get ;-) Then it was off to Germany and once I tasted their sausage there was no turning back.

But I still love animals ... they are some of the tastiest things I've ever eaten!

:-P

2007 Apr 26
This is a very interesting philosophical discussion. Not all vegetarians have stopped eating meat because of an ethical/moral objection to its consumption. But if it is for other reasons (for example I go through year long periods of eating very little meat...if any...because I cannot handle the texture), does that make those people any less vegetarian? Is there an inherent absolute in the label 'vegetarian'? Is it wrong for people who eat a prodominantly, but not exclusively, vegetarian diet to label themselves vegetarian?

Merriam Webster says being a vegetarian is practicing or believing in vegetarianism. Can you practice something most of the time and still call yourself by that label? Some people would say no, some people would say yes.

I realise it's frustrating for by the book vegetarians to have people muddy the water with fish and the like, but aren't labels like this somewhat subjective?

I wish we could just label burgers and bacon as vegetables because then it would become a moot point for me...if you want to find me while I'm falling off the wagon, I'll be checking out all your recommendations for the best burger in Ottawa.

2007 Apr 26
I suppose what I don't understand is why someone who occassionally eats beef, chicken and/or seafood would want to label themselves vegetarian in the first place.



2007 Apr 26
I agree with Chels...this is an interesting philosophical discussion. I wanted to start one of these a while ago. I don't think it's wrong to label yourself vegetarian if you 'mostly' are. Just like Catholics who say they are Catholic but don't go to church every Sunday and sin every day like the rest of us!

I consider myself a vegetarian, but I do eat fish and seafood. I was joking with the term 'fishtarian' for awhile, but as Fresh Foodie has pointed out, the correct term is pescatarian. Thanx! And people who have stopped eating meat, fish, cheese, eggs, dairy, and animal products for ethical/moral reasons, are 95% of the time VEGAN (at least the ones I know anyways). When I tell meat eaters that I'm a veggie, especially the meat eaters who can't wrap their head around not eating it, they are usually curious and ask questions, and of course I don't mind answering them! I think the general rule with this loose term 'vegetarian' is to explain yourself, people (meat eaters) don't mind if you let them know what you eat/not eat if going over for meals. Just the same as if a meat eater comes over to my house for a vegetarian meal, I'll ask them what they will eat or not eat!

zymurgist: I did NOT know about the rennet deal...wow, this info will make me look more closely at the cheese I buy.


2007 Apr 26
BTW, how does the use of leather fit into the whole vegetarian/vegan thing? I always feel a little bit naughty when I walk into Rainbow Foods wearing a leather jacket. :-)

2007 Apr 26
Oh I know! I've always wondered this myself....

In regards to this issue about leather and such, I always think of my vegan friend who completely follows this, like a religion. She will not and does not have any animal products as clothing, and obviously, doesn't consume them. Be this as it may, she's a lovely positive woman and doesn't preach or look down on you if you don't follow in her footsteps. I love that about her!

2007 Apr 26
It sounds like it's probably the difference between those that practice vegetarianism most of the time believing it's ok to label themselves vegetarian versus those that believe in it for moral/ethical reasons who believe the definition is absolute.

In terms of dishes (as opposed to people), it's never ok to label something vegetarian if it can't be eaten by a strict vegetarian. The whole wine/beer/cheese thing has thrown me for a loop though and I can see why this is such an important subject for people are lacto-ovo but won't eat anything that involves the death or harm of an animal.

On a related, but slightly different subject, do you think that the more vigorous interest in the environment will lead more people to eat vegetarian more regularly, given the less detrimental effect of eating a vegetarian diet?

2007 Apr 26
After reading the title, decide if you really want to watch.
From the comments: "Presto! I'm a vegetarian now!"

cyrusfarivar.com/blog/?p=1294

Signed,
A pesco/pollo vegetarian (but no writhing octopus...I always call ahead to the restaurant/host)
who likes leather shoes.

2007 Apr 26
Now *that* gave me the heeby-jeebies!

2007 Apr 26
...and imagine for those who have difficulties with chopsticks even when the food ISN'T moving!
A nightmare!

2007 Apr 26
Chels, you wondered if the current prominence of environmental issues might encourage vegetarianism... I'd say it can't hurt! I seem to remember that on average, ten times as much land is required to raise animals for food vs. plants for food.

Also related, they keep finding more and more reasons that the tastiest ways of cooking meat (grilling, frying -- anything with browning action) can cause cancer and other health problems. Steaming, stewing, and sauteeing over low heat are just about the only healthy ways left to cook now. These cooking methods can work just fine for meat, but they are rarely done without an entourage of tasty veggies! (It's always steamed chicken with mushrooms and water chestnuts or stewed beef with root vegetables...) De-emphasizing the role of meat as a "filler" (e.g. 12 oz steak on your plate with a sprig of parsley) is good news for the environment.

2007 Apr 26
Yup, 10 times. A really good book on it is "Diet for a Small Planet"

www.amazon.ca/dp/0345321200

Incidentally, if you ever wanted to really understand protein, this is also the book for you.

2007 Apr 26
Re. "those that believe in it for moral/ethical reasons who believe the definition is absolute..."

I don't really have much morality attached to being vegetarian -- I was "born that way," so it's not even as though I made much of a choice to start being one. I did make a choice to keep on with it when I was old enough to realise I was weird, sure, but I still don't lose sleep over people eating meat.

But I can't bloody stand non-vegetarians claiming to be vegetarians. Oy. Just because they make my life lousy. One feels like a jerk saying "I mean no seafood..." when trying to find out if something's vegetarian; it seems to suggest the other person's an idiot. But, the time I don't is the time I get served something "totally vegetarian" that I can't eat.

I don't agree that it's a philosophical discussion, either. "Vegetarian" is a useful term with a meaning.

Good job I'm tired, or I'd be even rantier.

Useful page on the topic, w/moderately amusing pics:

www.vegsoc.org/fish/fish.htm

2007 Apr 27
I agree with kmennie that it's not really a philosophical discussion anymore than 'housism' is. And i'm actually shocked that someone would suggest there is a definition for 'food' and a different one for 'people'. Isn't this actually the whole source of the problem? Food doesn't lie nor put on airs of pretense. People do. The food definition is the right one.

Here's hoping kmennie wakes up well rested and ready for a good rant ;-)

Or perhaps the right term is that it's a good psychological discussion ...

2007 Apr 27
Well, I am coming into this conversation rather late in the game, but I thought I'd leave my little comment. I respect those who are vegetarians, it's cool, no worries, but what I don't get is why? I mean, it's a primal instinct to eat meat. We are, as humans, mainly carnivores because our bodies haven't yet fuly developped to absorb all the sugars we eat (starches included). It's essentially why sugary foods, even thought they may not have very many calories, tend to add so much fat to the body.

And I mean really, meat just tastes, well, GOOD!

I'd like to really find out why a vegetarian or vegan privies him or herself from thenjoys of eating meat and it's delicious byproducts.

2007 Apr 27
I thought it was kinda cute :)

2007 Apr 27
I'm not going to touch the question of "why" to become a vegetarian with a 10 foot pole, but the cartoon reminded me of my own hang-ups with that particular rhyme. I always felt bad for the little piggy who had none, because it conjured visions of a poor starving piggy, so it's been modified in my family to go "...this little piggy had rooooaaaaassstttt beef, and this little piggy had none - he had mashed potatoes instead - and THIS little piggy..."

2007 Apr 27
tee hee :)

2007 Apr 28
TJ, you are either just plain-old trolling, or you are so incredibly uneducated on human nutrition that this really isn't the place to learn something about it. Pick up a copy of "Diet for a Small Planet" above and read the first 100 pages. If you are still confused, come on back and we'll straighten you out.

I will leave you with 1 good reason : this planet cannot support 6 billion carnivores once peak-oil hits. It will be lucky to support half that.

2007 Apr 28
BTW, to address the religious analogy above, there are several key reasons why this is apples and oranges.

Firstly, part of the whole point of Christianity is to recognise that "we are sinners" which means that even though we may believe in a core set of values, we are fundamentally by nature of our very being incapable of living up to those beliefs.

Secondly, even given the above there are definitely core beliefs which if you do not hold them, the Catholic Church does not consider you Catholic. If you are divorced and remarry for example, you cannot get communion. Politicians are also regularly threatened with the same punishment if they do not vote certain ways on certain bills. If you are only a there-and-gone Catholic and do not get deeply involved in the church I can understand that you would not necessarily get exposed to this aspect. As someone who spent most of the last 4 years heavily involved including a 2 year stint elected to church council I have been exposed to this.

From this perspective I believe there are a large number of people who call themselves "Catholic" but truly are not. In fact this is why in November last year I sat down with my priest and told him I was leaving the church. One example : if you believe in a woman's right to have an abortion, you truly are not Catholic.

And lastly and perhaps most powerfully, if you want to claim that to be vegetarian you only have to believe in vegetarianism, then this makes me vegetarian. And believe me I am anything but these days. One day I will return to a largely vegetarian diet because I believe it is the responsible thing to do for this planet, but today I eat meat like it's going out of style - especially now that BBQ season is here. I just last week filled up my freezer with a side of beef from a local farmer and will probably have a steak 4-5 times the recommended serving size each day for the next few weeks.

2007 Apr 28
In TJ's defense, I should point out that one has to simply examine our teeth to confirm that we have evolved to eat meat. zymurgist is bang on though, about the world not being able to support 6 billion carnivores. I'm all in favour of a largely vegetarian diet but I do acknowledge that pure vegetarianism is probably "unnatural" -- in much the same way that vaccines and modern medicine are.

zymurgist, the Catholicism analogy is actually a great one, given your points above! In your example of self-proclaimed Catholics who are considered NOT to be Catholics by the Church due to deviant beliefs. Ask yourself, regardless of what the pope thinks, do you consider them to be Catholics? Or more importantly, should society ban them from using the label Catholic to describe themselves?

As background, I'm happy eating meat only once or twice a week, but I'd never describe myself as vegetarian. But if I ate no meat -- only seafood, I'd probably say "vegetarian" instead of "pescetarian" just so people understand. This is because, in the context of food, Vegetarianism is a dietary *restriction*. A pescetarian is perfectly happy eating a vegetarian meal, so it makes sense for them to label themselves as a vegetarian.

What I'm learning here is that the term Vegetarian means different things:

Vegetarian - a person who does not eat ANY dead animals
Vegetarian - a meal consisting of no animals, appropriate for a Vegetarian
Vegetarian - a meal consisting of no animals, appropriate for a "person who does not eat *all* kinds of animals"

Honestly now, if you ate only animals that start with the letter B, wouldn't you generally just call yourself Vegetarian when asking about restaurant menus or when being invited over for dinner? Imagine if you were allergic to every fruit in the world *except* raspberries, bananas, oranges, and grapes. If someone invited you over for dinner and asked about dietary restrictions, would you list them all off or just say, "I can't eat fruit?"

So if you focus on the belief-system of Vegetarianism, then it's *not* okay to call yourself a Vegetarian if you eat any animals. However, culinarily, I believe it's just find for someone to describe themselves as Vegetarian as a convenient way to get a meal they will definitely be able to eat.

It's these latter "culinary" Vegetarians that muddy the waters of understanding and lead to questions like, "You're vegetarian, but can you eat fish?"

2007 Apr 28
Oh, I know about human nutrition, don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that the human body is, at it's start (and we're talking evolution here), was designed to eat meat. Ever look at a chimpanzee's or a gorillas teeth? Ever wonder why we have two sets of sharp teeth called canines? They arent there to grind down a rock hard squash or a tough green apple.

I even talked to my local high school human biology teacher, and she stated that yes, humans are naturally meant to eat meat. Not only meat, but still, to cut out beef, chicken, porc, and all those other tasty animals isn't what our bodies are meant for.

And even then, where would you get your iron? From pills? From cereal? That's even more unnatural than not eating meat.

So back to nutrition, yes, a blanced diet of meat, fruits and vegetables is key, that's why we have our molars, to grind down vegetable to a pleasant mush of sorts. All I was trying to say was that a strict diet of ONLY vegetables and fruits isn't very good for your body. That's all :)

2007 Apr 28
Wow, that monkey is going as my profil picture :P

2007 Apr 28
There is plenty of iron in a vegetarian diet. A simple google search tells me :

"Dried beans and dark green leafy vegetables are especially good sources of iron, even better on a per calorie basis than meat. Iron absorption is increased markedly by eating foods containing vitamin C along with foods containing iron. Vegetarians do not have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than do meat eaters."

I also seem to recall that molasses is very high in it as well.

The single nutrient which is difficult to get in a pure vegetarian diet is vitamin B12. Period. Drink a glass of milk a day and you are covered so it's only a real problem for strict vegans. Since it is an extremely important nutrient even though we only need a microgram per day, I am inclined to agree that the human body is not designed to eat zero meat. But the VAST majority of people in North America eat one to two orders of magnitude (10 to 100 times) more meat than they actually require. If we continue in this direction we WILL destroy ourselves.

2007 Apr 28
10 to 100? Holy cow. (Pun intended). I can see how we should slow down.

2007 Apr 28
Another good reason not to eat most supermarket meat comes once you learn a bit about how it is produced. The conditions that animals endure so that we can eat them are deplorable. This is why I've shifted the vast majority of my meat purchase to local farmers - so I know exactly where it comes from and how it was treated.

I've seen people say "well, we're just going to kill them and eat them anyway so why does it matter?" but I don't buy into that for one second. Animals are essentially tortured so that we can eat them. And this is largely because it is the 'profitable' way to raise them so that huge trans-national corporations can make record profits. Many people believe that factory farming is the only way to feed ourselves because of "economies of scale" or whatever. But in fact if you pay the same price for your meat and vegetables but cut out the middlemen and the massive profiteering, you get much higher quality meat and produce that was raised ethically and supports your local economy.

A good example of the massive profiteering was the mad cow scare a few years back. Farmers were getting a mere fraction of the normal prices for their meat - yet the prices in the supermarkets did not budge one iota. So the middlemen and the supermarkets were raking in record profits off the backs of hard-working farmers who were losing money on a massive scale. Then what does the Liberal government do? They come up with a "billion dollar boondoggle" which they sold to average Canadians as "helping farmers" but in fact what they did was hand essentially all of that billion dollars over to 3 trans-nationals (Cargill and I forget the other 2). The same transnationals who were already raking in record profits because they were paying farmers only a fraction of the normal price for meat, yet passing it up the chain at the same old prices.

Unbelievable that we let this happen and moreso that the vast majority of Canadians don't even realise it happened.

This of course isn't vegetarianism - it's more about knowing where your food comes from. The two are connected though.

Browse around here for a while if you can stomach it

www.meatrix.com/
www.factoryfarming.com

And let me know if you are still so keen on eating meat

2007 Apr 29
Fresh Foodie - Thank you for your post. Although I eat fish, shellfish makes me very ill so to avoid confusion I tell people I am a vegetarian. It's just easier that way.

2007 May 1
Personally, I think the real question is why would you eat meat? The huge impact on the environment alone (without even looking at the health benefits of eating vegetarian/vegan and the animal rights issues) of producing meat should make people at least consider eating less meat. The planet just can't sustain the kind of animal production that is currently taking place. If you're really interested, here are some websites to take a look at:

www.pcrm.org/health/
www.earthsave.org/
www.vegsource.com
www.vegsource.com

2007 May 1
Actually Zymurgist, it gets even more convoluted than that. Part of the reason why the prices didn't go down was because Canadians are not consumers of the 'whole cow'. We like our premium cuts. If you bought prime rib during the BSE scare, chances are your cut came from American beef. One of the reasons was that there were much fewer cattle going to slaughter because the price of slaughter was almost more than the animal was worth. Canadians go through a lot of cattle, but the majority of the um.. less refined cuts go to the United States. Without the US to buy the 'rest of the cow' for us it can become unsustainable to kill the beast for just the prime cuts. I agree with you that local is the way to go (although I'm still looking for a local place. Send me a personal message if you know any, as I don't want to get lynched by asking you to send it to me on the Vegetarian forum ;-))

2007 May 1
I am a relative newbie here and am enjoying this heated debate on vegetarianism. I ate a largely "vegetarian" diet for awhile - ie no red meat - but I really missed hamburgers and steaks especially when the summer hit. I think whether you choose to be vegetarian or not is a personal choice but since I started eating meat again I began thinking a little more about my food choices. Even though I am back to eating meat again I eat smaller portions which are usually incorporated in a salad or stirfry as opposed to eating a big honkin' piece of meat with a sprig of vegetables on the side. There is nothing wrong with eating meat - don't get me wrong - I just think our portions are way too big. I have also been benefitting from a couple of organic farmers markets in town and have noticed a difference in flavour. I find that the game meats are much more flavourful than the meat in the grocery store and the flavour of eggs from free range chickens are incomparable. Even though I do not consider myself a vegetarian I still enjoy eating meatless main courses occasionally to round out my diet.

2007 May 2
Good article

www.alternet.org

"It turns out that raising animals for food is a primary cause of land degradation, air pollution, water shortage, water pollution, loss of biodiversity, and not least of all, global warming."

[...]

"The U.N. report says almost a fifth of global warming emissions come from livestock [...] -- that's more emissions than from all of the world's transportation combined."

[...]

"farmed animals are probably the biggest cause of slashing and burning the world's forests."

[...]

"As if that wasn't bad enough, the real kicker comes when looking at gases besides carbon dioxide -- gases like methane and nitrous oxide, enormously effective greenhouse gases with 23 and 296 times the warming power of carbon dioxide, respectively. If carbon dioxide is responsible for about one-half of human-related greenhouse gas warming since the industrial revolution, methane and nitrous oxide are responsible for another one-third. These super-strong gases come primarily from farmed animals' digestive processes, and from their manure. In fact, while animal agriculture accounts for 9% of our carbon dioxide emissions, it emits 37% of our methane, and a whopping 65% of our nitrous oxide."

2007 May 2
Mers, people should eat meat because we are meant foir it. Humans are omnivores, and a strict vegetarian diet isn't healthy. There are proteins that are only in meat that are absolutely vital to the human body for it to be at it's top running shape.

"There are innumerable health benefits of eating meat, to say, for example, it serves as a fabulous source of high quality proteins, which a single vegetarian food is not able to provide. It contains all the essential amino acids that the body requires.

The red meat contains very high quantities of iron, when compared with plant origin foods. 100 grams of Liver contains 6000 mcgm of iron as against 325 mcgm in 100-gram carrots. Read further to explore information about the advantages of eating meat…

The phosphorus content present in meat gets much more easily absorbed than that present in cereals and legumes. This is owing to the fact that cereals and legumes contain phosphorus, usually in the form of phytic acid that must be hydrolyzed before absorption. Meat also serves as the main source for the intake of vitamin B12.

Though meat is rich in nutrients, but, there are certain things that meat lacks in. It doesn't contain any kind of fiber, which helps to keep your digestive system in order. Also it is very high in saturated fats, thus it is recommended to eat meat, but in moderate quantities.

Preserved meats like ham, bacon, salami etc should be avoided, as they are very high in terms of fats, salts, nitrites and nitrates that are often held responsible for causing cancer. It is recommended to eat not more than 60-75 grams of meat per day and not more than thrice a week."

That was off www.iloveindia.com
I thought it was very interesting.

2007 May 2
"There are proteins that are only in meat that are absolutely vital to the human body for it to be at it's top running shape. "

This is just plain wrong. Incorrect. Completely, totally, and absolutely. Period.

As mentioned, if you want to learn about how proteins work, read the first 100 pages of Diet for a Small Planet. It is explained in great detail, and you'll learn why the above is wrong.

The misleading part is this "which a single vegetarian food is not able to provide". That technically is true. Diet for a Small Planet teaches you about "complete proteins" which are what the human body needs. It also teaches you how to combine simple proteins from different sources to make complete ones. e.g. eat beans and rice within a few days of each other and you have a complete protein which is every bit as "complete" as those found in meats. Eating complete proteins in a vegetarian diet is extremely simple.

I wouldn't trust anything from the website you link - they've already proven to me they just simply don't know what they are talking about.

2007 May 2
Here is a good short description of how proteins work

www.ivu.org/faq/protein.html

I googled "diet for a small planet" "complete protein" (with the quotes)

Try the same search yourself and read the first page of hits. You'll learn a lot.

2007 May 2
Quoting TJ : "Mers, people should eat meat because we are meant foir it. Humans are omnivores, and a strict vegetarian diet isn't healthy."

BTW, this is just plain FALSE, too. That we are omnivores does not mean that we MUST eat meat. It means that we evolved to be able to survive on just about anything. And saying that a vegetarian diet is unhealthy pretty much gets proven wrong in every day life just by opening your eyes and looking around. Look around you at the people who eat meat. Statistically speaking over half of them are very overweight, obese, or morbidly obese. And that's healthy? On the other hand, most vegetarians are very healthy. Real world experience disproves you. Off I go to google for stats ...

As I've already stated and you TJ are conveniently overlooking - the ONLY nutrient a strict vegetarian (vegan) has trouble getting is Vitamin B12. Drink a glass of milk a day and you are covered. So you don't need ANY meat to get this. And you only need a very tiny amount of animal product.

Of course, you seem to be conveniently skipping all of my posts. It seems to me that you have some preconceived idea that you are unwilling to part with regardless of any facts presented.

2007 May 2
9 reasons why vegetarianism is healthier (and 1 frivilous reason to round it out to 10) :

findarticles.com

Abridged below :

1 A vegetarian diet can clean out your Arteries. By age 23, three out of four men have at least one major blockage in the arteries to the heart. The biggest reason, in most cases, is the fat and cholesterol in that chicken salad and roast beef they've been eating.

2 It might preserve your sexual potency. Impotence increases in midlife, and by age 60, a quarter of all U.S. men have said good-bye to sex. The reason is not performance anxiety. In most cases, those blocked arteries we just mentioned are to blame. Male sexual function depends on good blood flow.

3 Giving up meat will keep you lean. Does your high-school graduation picture show the last time you were in good shape? Many men gain weight in early adulthood. The reason often is that they have traded their athletic jerseys for business suits but are still eating like football players. [...] The average man who starts a vegetarian diet becomes 10 percent leaner

4 You may never have to learn where your prostate is. A meat-based diet causes a man's body to make a bit too much testosterone. This doesn't make you more manly but actually causes overproduction of cells in the prostate gland, which rests beneath the bladder and surrounds the urethra. An overgrown prostate can pinch off urinary flow, leading to a diagnosis of benign prostate hyperplasia. This condition can make you miserable, necessitating trips to the bathroom all night long. This process happens to some extent in most men, starting at about age 30, but it is two-thirds less likely to occur at all if you are a vegetarian.

5 It might make you nicer. The Massachusetts Male Aging Study, a large research study of health in older men conducted by the Boston University's school of Medicine, found that the more fiber in a man's diet, the less likely he is to be overly aggressive and domineering. The reason, presumably, is that fiber helps prevent testosterone excesses. The liver constantly filters the blood, pulling out waste testosterone and sending it into the intestinal tract. There, fiber soaks up the testosterone like a sponge and carries it out with other waste products.

6 A meatless diet can cut your risk of cancer. A beer in one hand, a spatula in the other -- who'd notice the carcinogens on that grilling burger? Most cooking methods create carcinogens on meat; in fact, chicken actually has 15 times more carcinogens than cooked beef, according to researchers with the National Cancer Institute based in Bethesda, Md. As a group, vegetarians -- including even french-fry-eating, soda-guzzling, couldn't-care-less-about-health vegetarians -- are 40 percent less likely to develop cancer than meat eaters.

7 You might even forestall baldness. Whether or not a man goes bald depends entirely on genetics. However, the age at which hair loss starts and how quickly it progresses depends on testosterone, which enters the hair follicles and gradually kills them off. Some research suggests that the same excess testosterone that enlarges a meat eater's prostate might cause baldness to occur too soon and too quickly.

8 There are microbes on meat. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, 15 percent of beef carcasses are contaminated with disease-causing bacteria. Chicken is even worse -- about a third of the chicken packages at retail stores are tainted with live salmonella, and 60 to 80 percent carries a similar, lesser-known bug called campylobacter. These bacteria can cause an illness that masquerades as the flu, and many strains are now resistant to common antibiotics.

9 You'll hold high blood pressure and diabetes at arm's length. Sixty million Americans have high blood pressure. Half of them are taking medication for it and enduring all kinds of side effects, including impotence in men. The other half are not ye

2007 May 2
All I'm saying is that veganism, as cool as it might SOUND, isn't what your body is built for. And as you say about people who eat meat are over weight, it's not because of meat, it because they eat TOO much. Meat doesnt make you fat, too much of it does. Just like guns don't kill people, people kill people. And to bring in a statistic about people who eat meat are over weight is like bringing up the rainforest at a seminar for traffic control. It makes no sense! The fact that they eat meat doesn't make them overweight. Sure, meat can be fatty, but I eat it, and I'm not overweight. However, I don't eat 10 times as much as I should.

Vegetarians can be fat, ya know. Vegetables aren't just water, they have calories too.

And no wonder you have those facts, www.ivu.com is VEGETARIAN website! That's like going on to www.beefitswhatsfordinner.com/, and beleiving all the of the things they say about beef and it's benefits.

And for you B12 statement, a vegan can't drink milk. So now I can surely say that being a vegan ain't right.

2007 May 3
Hi TJ,

My health is just fine after 7 years of veganism. (Thanks for your concern. :) ) I have had blood tests done at my annual check ups, and my doctor says I'm doing just fine. True, I do eat fortified foods and take a supplement to get the B12 that I can't get from plant based foods.

I play ultimate frisbee on a competitive traveling team with no problems (which involves practicing twice a week and 6-8 weekend long tournaments per summer season), so my body seems to be "in top running shape".

Yes, I agree that vegans and vegetarians can be fat. Anyone can be on a junk food diet or by eating too much.

I agree that believing only one source's opinion isn't wise, but there are a number of non-vegetarian organizations that agree that meat production adversely impacts the environment and/or that vegetarianism is good for health (Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations; Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada; David Suzuki Foundation; and American Dietetic Association).

www.fao.org
ww2.heartandstroke.ca
www.davidsuzuki.org
www.adajournal.org

2007 May 3
TJ, that's how protein works regardless of what site I found it on. It's not just an opinion of that site, it's scientific fact. And while we are discrediting each other's sources, you apparently want to hold fast to an off-hand comment (opinion) about protein that you read on a site called "I Love India", with nothing whatsoever to back up that comment.

You also skip over the fact that because we are omnivore doesn't mean we MUST eat meat. It means we CAN eat meat. Henry Ford designed his first car to burn gasoline OR alcohol. It was built for it. Doesn't mean you HAVE to have both to have your car running in top form. One OR the other is just fine.

We are presenting you with FACTS about how vegetarians can be perfectly healthy but you just aren't interested in facts. You've got a notion in your head and no amount of fact is going to get it out of there. Very unfortunate to say the least.

I believe this puts us at an impasse.

2007 May 3
Whoa.. I can feel the flames from here. Holy hot seat. Even though zymurgist seems to be on the winning team, I'm going mess with some of his 10 'facts' (er.. I mean reasons) why vegetarianism is healthier.

1. Clean out your arteries. Well maybe, but the 'by age 23' quote is garbage, and I'd guess the stats, if they are real are from north american sources. With heart disease virtually non existant in France and Japan, and carnivorous activities high, this is a poor piece of evidence that meat=heart disease.

2. Sexual potency. Ok.. I'm going to make this one up, but anecdotally, men in France and Italy are quite um.. active in their later years, what with their mistresses and all.

3. Yup.. you're right.. I've never met a fat vegetarian. We could all be super-models. (aack!)

4. I won't talk about my prostate if you promise to not talk about yours...everyone on the forum will thank us.

5. More fibre = vegetarianism... er.. not exactly Pancho. Once again they are using american men as the control group, who are not good 'balanced' eaters. I believe balance is the key here.. not vegetarianism.

6. Um.. recheck your sources cowboy. I could not find one study that reported causation. At best there is a strong correlation with eating red meat. Last time I checked, birds, and fish still made someone a carnivore.

7. Bald is sexy don't you know. Just ask the foodie ladies ;-)

8. Oooh... microbes. There is this thing called cooking. ;-) And last time I checked.. the latest big bacteria scare in North America was on baby spinach... something not normally cooked, and thus a potentially larger hazzard.

9. Ok.. diabetes which is really crappy, and high blood pressure, which is also crappy and prevalent in North Americans can hardly be attributed to meat eating exclusively. Lots of other meat eating places in the world don't have the same problems. Back to the balanced diet comment.

Ok.. most of my comments were true, but also tongue in cheek... Flame me at your own risk ;-)

2007 May 3
I've met several overweight vegetarians... I think it comes from a sincere love of cheese! I know that if I cut out meat, I'd be eating even more cheese. That said, I have never met an overweight vegan. Vegan cheese is not very nice.

LOL at #4, Pete.

2007 May 3
I have cut out meat, FF and damnit, although I've tried, I cannot cut out cheese!!! And you are right about vegan cheese...no comparison!

Pete, yes for #7 ;-)

2007 May 3
Ha, ha, good one's Pete - well done ;-) Yes, there are some serious holes in some of those(and some serious humour in others). I never presented those 10 items as 'facts' - i'm very careful about my use of that word. But there have been lots of facts and science posted here to support the notion that vegetarianism is perfectly healthy, and to dutifully refute every single thing TJ has said.

TJ has yet to post a single bit of bona fide science. His argument is basically "We are omnivores, therefore we MUST eat meat. This makes perfect sense to me, therefore it must be right. Look, it even says so on the 'I love India' website. It must be true"

Anyway, I'm done. There is no sense in arguing with someone who isn't interested in facts and cannot simply admit when he is wrong instead of bolstering a position which is obviously not tenable. There's nothing bad about being wrong - we are all human and we all do it all the time. I am especially good at it :-) And I'll be the first to eat crow (pun intended!) and admit it when I am. But this is not one of those cases.

2007 May 3
Well, I talked to my good friend Chloe who's a vegetarian, and I asked her to bring me some proof that vegetarianism is in fact very healthy. She brought me the goods, and showed me the pros and cons from Health Canada's study on vegetarians. She is a vegetarian, so are her parents(her mother's a certified dietician), and with what she showed me, and I must say, I have been defeated. So I learned that a vegetarian diet can be great, with a couple minor drawbacks like the lack of B12, vitamin D and iron.

Still, the fact that I find vegetarianism not completely, 100% natural doesn't change. As a vegetrian, you gotta be real careful to have a balanced meal, and even more if you are vegan. Now, as my final statement, I would just like to say that soy milk is nasty.

and btw, zymurgist, I hate to say it, but you were right. Man, I think I just heard my pride shatter on the floor :P

2007 May 3
TJ: ah, bless; it was nice to get to the end of this thread (so far) and find the mea culpa...

As for why I don't eat it?

This is difficult to explain without offending the omnivores; it always is, and it never gets easier. I do not want or expect to convert anybody; I'm just attempting an explanation of personal feelings on the topic. Certainly I do not look down on meat-eaters.

It looks gross. I can't mentally acknowledge it as "food."

There was a slightly smushed squirrel in front of my building for a couple of days this week. Rather sad. Especially given the similiarity in fur to my cat.

I'm unable to put enough distance between "dirty, rotting squirrel that makes me unhappy" and "cat that is a friend who lives with me" and...and "steak." I definitely don't want to eat any of the three. I am aware of the obvious retort here, that I do not go and share my bed with dead squirrels or go about petting steak and hoping for a purr. But.

The texture seems all wrong. Some years ago, a DC Taco Bell gave me a chicken fajita in lieu of a veg one (yeah, they had fajitas; not bad). I bit into it and got as far as a half-bite down before I realised, and did not actually taste anything: the texture alone was enough. I retched quite a bit. My response at the time was along the lines of "WTF? It's like I bit into my own arm."

Much of it stinks. Particularly the cheap stuff; I can almost tell how much a piece of meat cost by how it smells. Cheap hamburger is horrid, but good steak isn't nearly so stinky. Still, it always just smells lousy to me, not like anything I want to put in my mouth.

Never having eaten it, I'm not at all convinced that I'm missing out on some fantastic tastes that make all the disgusting aspects of it worthwhile. Vegetarian cuisine made by recent converts can be pretty appallingly bad, but if you've never eaten it, you're not missing anything, and there's no need to form soybeans into funny shapes. I think I've mentioned here that I'm wanting to write a cookbook; adapting veal Prince Orloff into a vegetarian recipe -- slabs of veal replaced with slabs of veg -- was some damn tasty fun.

Finally, I admit to not being as disinterested as I sometimes pretend to be in the ethical concerns. On some levels, I do suspect that it might just be plain wrong to kill something when you have absolutely no need to. That these animals usually have crappy lives before slaughter doesn't make it any easier. It's not a topic I've ever really wrestled with at serious length, but when I do muse on it, I have a hard time thinking it's okay. For me.

It probably goes without saying that some of this is unlikely to make sense given that I'm not a vegan; I eat eggs and I really enjoy my dairy. (Qv Fresh Foodie's comment on fat vegetarians -- I'm not fat, but neither am I effortlessly rail-thin or anything.) I also don't think it's wrong to feed my cats meat (sure is disgusting stuff; even the 'ultra-premium' reeks, but).

Anyway. You asked...

2007 May 4
www.chow.com/stories/10554

Heh...I guess that makes me a sometimes flexitarian who is ba-curious.

2007 May 4
interesting discussion...I'm not vegetarian but I try to limit the amount of meat I eat for environmental and ethical reasons.

Slightly off topic but I thought I would share...I'm reading a fascinating book called "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan.

Pollan asks and answers the simple question "what should we eat for dinner?". He discusses the food chains (industrial, organic, forage) that feed us.

If you'd like to learn more about where our food comes from (no matter what side of the meat fence you're on), I highly recommend it. The book has made me more aware of the impact our food choices have on our health, economy, and environment. The chapter on industrial meat farming made me want to become a strict vegetarian!

2007 May 6
I heard an interesting term used today:

"flexitarian"

haha.


2007 May 6
I think part of the confusion that is causing kmennie and other vegetarians headaches, is that many people have modified their meat consumption without going strictly vegetarian. My oldest child doesn't eat meat or poultry, but does eat fish and seafood. Every time I inform someone that I don't eat beef, they assume I am vegetarian and interrogate me about what I DO eat. I do eat a lot of vegetarian food, but would not consider myself vegetarian at all.

When I cook for just myself, I never prepare meat. It's something I can take or leave, and usually do. But I wouldn't necessarily think that a vegetarian diet would suit everyone. My youngest child has autism, and has a lot of issues with food and food textures. Most of the meats he used to prefer are highly processed and mushy. Hot dogs, burgers, nuggets, greasy pepperoni on a pizza. I am discovering that he now is becoming accepting of food textures he previously hated. If I can get him to enjoy a pork chop and corn on the cob instead of the highly coveted burger and fries, then that is a victory for me....and I'll take it, with apologies to the pigs. He doesn't like eggs, or tofu or beans (with the exception of hummus) and the protein he likes the best (peanut butter) is strictly forbidden at school. He would happily exist on a diet of Quaker instant oatmeal and pasta with cheese if I let him.

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand...I do think it is a good thing that more and more people are eating vegetarian food and decreasing their meat consumption. I don't think you have to adopt a strict vegetarian diet to ask yourself the question "Does something need to die every time I get hungry?"