ottawa foodies

We decided to celebrate my birthday at Juniper. I had not been tothe new location but my friend (who was in attendance) had had her wedding at the old location so we decided to give it a try. All this despite the fact that they have not bothered to update their website nor did they return my phone call when I asked about special event services (i.e. my upcoming wedding or rehearsal dinner). Anyways I did not know this but one of my friends had brought me a birthday cake from Loblaws and asked if we could have it at the end of our meal. They were less than gracious about the entire situation. I mean I get that if we had brought our own wine they would charge us corkage but they were absolutely rude about the whole thing and charged us 7.00 dollars a person to cut the cake. There were 14 of us so that is 85 dollars!!!! We each had appetizers, drinks and main courses. The owner's rudeness basically ruined the evening for all of us and we want to make sure that eveyone knows never to go there. I for one will never be returning.

It doesn't sound as the though the restaurant handled this very graciously, but there are 2 issues at play here. First off, many restaurants will not let you bring in your own desserts, even restaurants that aren't fancy or expensive.
Always call first before bringing your own cake to a restaurant.
I got denied at The Heart and Crown once, and they weren't all that nice about it. There were 14 of you, and not that it is any way guaranteed that all of your party would have ordered dessert from the restaurant, if you all HAD, that would have been $98.00 in sales for the restaurant.

Issue of lost sales aside, restaurant staff had to cut and plate the dessert, and someone had to wash the cutlery and plates. It isn't totally out of place to levy a charge for that, especially since you hadn't arranged ahead to bring it in.

From a personal perspective, I would feel at least slightly offended if someone brought in a cake from Loblaw's to the restaurant I work for. A homemade cake specially made for a guest would not be a problem. But that's speaking as a pastry chef....if I was the restaurant owner I would not have applied the extra charge to your party. A client's goodwill is more important.

No matter a restaurant's policy, there is no excuse for being rude. You either charge a fee, or not, or refuse outside food altogether. It's the "less than gracious" part that is the problem here -- even more so that they stood to make $98 (14 x $7) off the deal. Rudeness is the one thing I cannot abide in a restaurant experience. Thanks for the heads up.

We went to a birthday party at a restaurant and the birthday boy's wife brought their own cake. The server was very accommodating and helped cut the cake and sang the birthday cake together and didn't charge anything extra. In the end, the server got a BIG tip. Of course, if my friend didn't bring the cake, they may have ordered the dessert from the menu.

I do think that a restaurant goal is to make money. If they are not making money, there won't be any good restaurants in Ottawa and we may just stay home and don't bother going out to eat.

But to charge customer $7 per person for bringing your own cake, this is way too expensive. I don't think this was handled properly. The server/managemement at Juniper should at least tell your friend that it is cheaper to order dessert from the menu and recommend to enjoy the Loblaws cake at home. This will not upset customers since customers are at least given the options.

Dear Diinnerclub,
I agree that there is no excuse for rudeness and the extra charge seemed a bit excessive, but... bringing your own FOOD to a restaurant?
It should have been handled better by the restaurant but to be honest, selling food is how they make money and stay in business.
A place like Juniper has been able to stay in business for as long as it has because of the investment they have made into creating interesting recipes and menues, and offering a pleasant dining atmosphere.
It is a shame that you will never be returning because it is indeed a very nice place to eat. They will be missing a very good customer.
Perhaps if you discussed your displeasure with the restaurant management directly, you might be able to give them a second chance.

Dinnerclub also posted on restauranthing, and someone from Juniper responded to his post, for anyone interested in the other side of the story.

re: comments on Restaurant Thing

I disagree that it was an "extremely unusual request". I go out to a lot of family birthday celebrations and we usually bring a cake -- and clear it with the restaurant beforehand. We've done this twice in the past month alone and were accommodated with nothing but grace, no plating charge, and we even ended up spending more money on dessert drinks.

Ollie, I'm not defending the staff/owner at Juniper's actions, but from the posts on Restaurant thing it seems clear that there was a certain amount of attitude both on service and client's end. I still think the "plating charge" should not have been per person, and was therefore excessive.

They really would have been better off refusing the request with as much courtesy as possible than fulfilling it in such an ungracious manner.

As far as bringing your own food, the big difference is clearing it with the restaurant beforehand. This is crucial. Just because this restaurant or that one will allow you to serve your own food doesn't mean any restaurant is obligated.
Whenever possible have courtesy on your side.

"Ollie, I'm not defending the staff/owner at Juniper's actions, but from the posts on Restaurant thing it seems clear that there was a certain amount of attitude both on service and client's end."

Agreed. My only contention is with the staff/owner's assertion that it was an extremely unusual request. He was either mischaracterizing the incident to make his point look stronger or he doesn't get out much.

Other than that I think we're in agreement. :)

I think bringing your own food to any restaurant is not acceptable. This would be a practice that I say might be acceptable at McDonalds for a kids birthday party or another establishment that doesn't have an agreeable dessert for such an occasion, but I think it is really bad form to assume that a full-service restaurant would be gracious in this case, especially when it is presented with this situation without warning.

This opinion is in no way saying that Juniper is too good for that kind of practice either, but it isn't fair to assume that it will be acceptable without prior consultation.

Look at it from this perspective: would you THINK of bringing food to a movie theatre when you go to see the latest flick on Saturday night? No. Why? Because everyone knows that they have a policy about outside food and drink. You don't question it, you just know they are strict about it. You understand that they are trying to run a business and food in their case is their bread and butter, not ticket receipts. It is the same for restaurants.

If you were trying to save money on this event, then the better choice would have been to go to a less expensive restaurant where everyone in your party could afford the meal AND the dessert. Or, call the restaurant prior to the event to see if they would provide a cake at a discounted price than buying 14 a-la-carte desserts. I'm sure they would have complied.

If the cake wasn't brought to the restaurant in the first place, likely you would have had an amazing experience and your review would be positive instead.

FatCat - I agree with you that bringing your own food to restaraunt is not generally acceptable, but I disagree with bringing it to movies. Ostensibly, the 'no outside food' rule for theatres is not supposed to be about the theatre's bread and butter, as much as it is the fact that their food sales are supposed to offset the cost of keeping the theatre clean (and make a reasonable profit), from the food consumed inside. I think the theatres have gone way way too far with pricing, and have in fact set up a business model that relies far too heavily on concessions sales to support flimsy business models and crappy service. I believe that it is a perfectly acceptable form of protest to bring your own candy bar, or other 'non mess making' snack, if you make sure to leave no litter or trace of it in the theatre. As a side note, the Bytowne theatre seems to be able to survive just fine charging less money at the concession stand, and having to put up with lots of people 'going on the cheap'. my 2 cents CDN

Keep in mind that it's the big movie companies that set the rules for theatres, so the theatre owners don't have much choice but to try to make money from concessions. I bet a google could bring up exact info but my recollection is that the theatre gets only something like 2% or 3% of ticket sales.

"I believe that it is a perfectly acceptable form of protest to bring your own candy bar, or other 'non mess making' snack..."

Agreed. Something that's eaten quietly, too.

I'd be thrilled to buy food there if they had decent food at a reasonable price.

I don't feel any ethical obligations to help out their business; I still have a big hate on for their introducing ads there.

I think that bringing your own foods(no matter if it's a bottle of water, caviar, Champagne or a cake) to public place(cinema, bar, theater, restaurant, wine bar, museum, etc. etc.) is a bad manner. It's a disrespectful action towards who's working in those public places. A worker must be respected. I can do whatever I want in my house but in a public place my freedom is over where individual rights begin...........nobody is forced to go to a public place if he dislikes the philosophy of these organizations.

Whoa.. slow down Mr. Red. It certainly does matter what the 'public place' is, although by definition it is a place where anyone can go. A public park for example... I can assure you Paris would not be quite so fun if you couldn't bring your own croissant, cheese and wine to enjoy in a public park. Does this offend the guy selling hot dogs (ok.. maybe crepes).. frankly I don't care. As for a museum, I beleive that children who take tours regularly bring their own lunches (I remember that I did when I was a child).. keeping in mind that the appropriate place to consume these is a food court or cafeteria, or outside. I'm guessing you're not much of a fan of performance art.. as it impugnes upon the rights of the public not to be disturbed in public places.. or some such nonsense. Next thing you know, we'll all be having to wear the same clothes, and walk into a meat grinder... oh wait.. that's a Pink Floyd movie... never mind.

But restaurants and movie theatres are NOT "public places" in the same sense that streets and parks are, they are private establishments that are open to the public. As such, these private businesses reserve the right to set thier own rules and I agree with Mr. Red that it is disrespectful to purposley break those imposed rules simply because you don't personally agree with them.

Where is the socialist in you HOT? A little civil disobedience is what makes the world an interesting place. And restaraunts and theatres are more public places than private. If they were purely private they would not need licenses to operate. The restaraunt example is interesting because they have health regulations to abide by, and are legally 'responsible' for food served in their establishment. In that situation, they can, and probably should refuse to serve food that was prepared outside. With your movie theatre example however, where is the line? The main atrium area, where the food court is, in a theatre is totally public, and anyone can come off the street and enter. Does that mean it's not ok to eat a stick of gum that you purchased somewhere else just because they sell sticks of gum at the theatre concessions? What about bringing your own peanuts to a ball game in a ball park? I think any place that opens itself up to the public has a onus of 'reasonableness' to respect with regards to their rules... otherwise they can restrict their clientelle to 'members only' and do precisely what they want. As a side note, this is why the PGA is allowed to restrict women from playing in their tournaments. As another side note.. as a father of a small infant, it would be utterly ridiculous to tell me I can't bring my own food. Maybe the theatre can start selling baby formula, or MUM MUM crackers. Maybe they could just offer wet nurses? ;-)

I've got to say... I had a conversation on this topic over dinner with my partner. Perhaps what I have to say is nothing new, but just reinforcement of the principal behind this... what the diners did was just absolutely poor etiquette. It's expected that if a special request, or accomodation, is to be received well you call the establishment in advance to ensure there won't be a problem. This is pretty standard practice. Furthermore, the client actually agreed to a plating charge, after reading the entry on the restaurantthing website. At this point they basically sealed their own fate, they had the choice to take it elsewhere upon finding this out YET THEY DECIDED TO PROCEED. The owner or server is put on the spot, they've got other tables to tend to, etc. I don't think $6-7 per is insane. Not to mention, you've just stiffed the business out of potential dessert sales (as the owner mentions, they have a fulltime pastry chef, they could have accomodated just fine), not to mention the wasted time the servers, bus, and dishwash staff have to deal with when there is no extra tip coming their way. This is really the last thing they want to deal with, I hate to say. I know it's a "hospitality" industry, but I've been in this industry, and the first thing any successful business owner will tell you is that the customer is NOT always right. Sure, be courteous, but I think their complaint may be slightly biased, maybe missing some detail? I just think this is a fine example of that statement. But talk about NOT wanting to take ANY responsibility for the fateful twist in their evening... they knew there would be a plating charge... what did they expect?!? Bah! People are stupid!

This has been an intriguing and interesting topic to follow! I ALWAYS bring water absolutely everywhere I go, and I know I'm not the only one. Of course, I don't drink it when I'm in a restaurant, but for sure I'm bringing it to the movie theatre, every...single...time. Plus, what about people with special diets such as celiac, diabetes, allergies, etc.? There is no way that they AREN'T bringing their own snacks, food, drink, whatever into a theatre...and I've never heard of a business, theatre or not, turning these people away because of that. Rules are never set in stone, they are more like set in putty!

I will start buying snacks at movie theatres the day they start serving antipasto and wine by the glass instead of overpriced watery soda and gross snack foods.

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but I remember reading about this on another local restaurant review site quite some time ago and thought I'd share Juniper's side of the story:

[In response to Mr. Burns comments concerning the “Birthday Cake Incident”, we would like to respond by first stating that Juniper takes great pride in the quality of our food, in preparing all our foods in house, and on the quality of service which we provide to our guests.

Mr. Burns should understand that it is an extremely unusual request to bring a cake, or any other part of a dinner, to a restaurant. Normally guests, when arranging for a special dinner, will call ahead and make special requests; Juniper employs a pastry chef on a full time basis and would have been more than happy to have prepared an outstanding cake for the celebration. However, instead, the party arrived with a birthday cake which in no way was appropriate to the evening. Our first response was that Juniper does not serve outside products: we have a health and safety responsibility for any food served in our restaurant.. We were asked to please serve the cake and to bill a plating charge to the party.

When the bill was delivered to the table, Mr. Burns took exception to the plating charge. Perhaps we should have refused to serve the cake; however, because ours is a service industry we tried to provide service to the satisfaction of the client. We agreed to serve the cake and you agreed to a plating charge. When you approached the service staff, they tried to explain the charge and the reasoning behind it; this did not satisfy you. You then asked to speak with the owner, but our conversation seemed one sided: you complained and did not listen to my response. The conversation became strained; if I seemed rude to you, the feelings were mutual.

I regret Mr. Burns’ unhappiness with the events of the evening. However, I stand by the policy of not serving outside food, and will in the future, make that clear at the outset of the evening and stand by that policy.]

I had not seen this message when it first appeared and read it with interest. I have been to Juniper's a few times many years ago and have been thinking I should go back as it was where I went on a first date with my girlfriend for the last almost 6 years.... so I am thinking it would be fun to go back as an aniversary of sorts even if they are at a different location.

I am not going to comment on who was in the right restaurant in terms of bringing the cake to the restaurant as their appears to have been a good healthy discussion already.

I will say that $7 per person of what is ostensibly pure profit, is too much when there are 14 people.

I guess I just have a couple of questions two for dinnerclub if she, or he, is still on here and one for everyone else:

1) You mentioned the rudeness at the end of the meal when the issue of the cake came up. How were they before then? I am guessing the service was good as you did not mention it in your initial review but I am curious to know given that I am thinking of going back.

2) Did Junipers tell you it would be a plating fee of $7 per person in advance of doing it? Was there an opportunity for them to do this?

3) What have been the experiences of others who have been to Junipers recently?

Cheers

Bringing one's own cake into a restaurant that already serves cake has always struck me as a little awkward, if not downright rude. Imagine trying to bring wine into a restaurant that does not advertise a BYOW service...

Also, keep in mind that with BYOW places there is a corking fee. One rule of thumb is that the corking fee should be equal to that restaurant's cheapest bottle of wine. This guarantees their profit and allows them to treat your wine with the respect it deserves (chilling, decanting, etc). If you apply this rule of thumb to the cake, which must be presented (usually with lit candles) and then sliced and served on the restaurant's plates, then each diner should be charged a "plating fee" equal to the price of the cheapest dessert on the menu. With these assumptions, $7 per person does not seem unreasonable to me.

Juniper's response strikes me as a little bit defensive and unprofessional, but let's face it -- nobody's an expert at everything. People who make excellent food are not always tactful; leave that to the PR professionals! And they seem to have been raked over the coals in this case by one dissatisfied customer. I happen to think that the customer's complaints are not all justified, so I tend to side with Juniper.

medicinejar, in your shoes I would focus on the food. This cake thing is just one incident and is therefore statistically insignificant. Certainly nothing worth missing a great meal for!

Think that this topic really got some people fired up, love it!!!

I have to say though to bring a cake, especially one from Loblaws into a fine dining establishment is a definate NO NO.

They spend a lot of time & money creating 'daily' desserts that if not sold go into the garbage. So if 14 people in a small bistro don't order dessert because they 'brought their own'. That is a huge loss at the end of the day.

Not to mention the fact that any food consumed in the restaurant they are liable for. The minimal $7 charge takes all of this into account as well as what was mentioned by others, the servers time, dishwashing, etc.

I for some reason can't find the restaurant thing conversation between the restaurant & the patron. Can someone tell me the web address. When I went on what I thought was the restaurant thing and clicked on Juniper there was nothing about this issue?

Can't state my opinion about how the restaurant address this issue because I don't have the whole story but rudness is never an apporipriate thing to a customer. When I finally find the site I will put in my 2 cents then.

here's the original posting from restaurantthing

restaurantthing.com

Thanks Monty. I guess I was on the right site just didn't read far enough down. Thought the dates below the 'pen names' were the dates the comment were submitted, not when they joined,duh.

After reading the owners rebuttal I can relate to what happened. Sometimes if a customer is upset about something they won't listen to reason when someone ie the owner or manager try to explain the situations reality. Especially after they have been drinking, almost impossible to have a conversation. If the charge was the customers idea why is there even a comment on here?

Good for you Norm for standing ground & agree it is easier to just set a firm policy of no outside food allowed in the future.

Don't think it will really hurt business that much, if the person is this upset about a simple plating charge those around them probably know that they are unstable and brush it off to be just another bit of their tiresome banter.

I am a newbie and I could not help but join in here on this subject. As a cake connoisseur I believe the offense the Restaurant took was totally justified. Cake(you can hardly call it that) from Blaw-Blaws(Baked somewhere like Richmond Hill Ontario, frozen, shipped across county, have edible oil product slapped on it & written on with piping gel and sit in a viewing case for a week). How offensive to the pastry chef whom spent many years honing his craft. So if 14 of your close friends get sick. Low and behold you blame the restaurant when in fact it was that petrified peice of poop dropping you brought into a fine, built a fabulous from scratch reputation establishment. I can bet the $7 per person cutting fee was meant to discourage you from actually eating the cake in the establishment and you didn't take the hint! PS: $7 is nothing, some places will charge you $25 per person to cut a cake. Now if there had been a $$$$$ masterpiece cake made in your honour and a courtesy phone call was made prior, I am sure the outcome would have been different. But alas your friends spent only $12-17 on your cake and didn't make that 25c call.