No more... [General]

2008 Sep 16
This was the first summer where I tried to buy alot more local, small business, home grown and farmers market produce.

I must say, I feel I was ripped off just a bit. I was consistently charged 25% more to double the prices I can get at the regular grocery stores.

Some of it was better, like tomatoes... got some amazing tomatoes this summer from the cumberland market, and other markets.

Most of it tasted the same. Cucumbers, potatos, corn, peppers, etc. They tasted fresh at both the market and the grocery store.

Today, I stopped at a roadside vegetable stand. I paid *$9.00* for 4 tomatoes, 2 cucumbers and a green pepper. That would have cost me about $4 at the grocery store.... tops.

I *want* to support and buy local. I can not afford it. Money is tight in my family... I really just can't continue to do it. I will continue to look for Canada or Ontario signs at the grocery store, but I will pay much less.


2008 Sep 16
it's unfortunate but it's largely in part because the input costs of farming have skyrocketed! commodities prices are through the roof which in turn forces farmers to raise their prices.

2008 Sep 16
monty, I think your explanation is correct, but something still doesn't make sense to me. Are the local farmers only selling their produce at markets (for what is probably 10 times the wholesale price)? What about the other Ontario farmers who supply the grocery stores.. aren't they experiencing the same input cost explosions?

Here are some rough estimates based on the prices Peter gave (I'm assuming a 50% cut for all parties to cover profits, waste and spoilage):

Grocery: $4 to the grocery store => $2 to the distributor => $1 to the farmer
Market: $9 directly to the farmer

It's hard to believe that simple volume discounts account for a 9x revenue decrease when the farmer sells to a grocery store!

2008 Sep 16
And here I thought Monty was a banker or something :-)

Yeah, I can't account for it either to be honest. Maybe some part economies of scale. Another part good old fashioned gouging :-(

2008 Sep 16
ok so maybe the $9 roadside vegetables was a case of a farmer preying on the foolish (sorry Peter!) but really with rising costs i'm certain that small time dealers must be struggling.

am i the only one seeing inflationary pressures at the grocery store? or is it the banker (read: cheapskate) in me paying too much attention?

2008 Sep 17
When I worked on an apple farm, we would go to the farmer's market weekly. If I remember correctly, the price for a basket (4 or 6 quart?) was a wee bit more than a standard supermarket price, but if you bought by the half bushel or higher, you could get it cheaper than the supermarket price (as purchased by the basket at supermarket). This was a nice little cash income for the farmer, for as FreshFoodie points out, cutting out the middleman really helps. Of course, the farm I worked at was maybe 60 acres of apple trees, and there is NO WAY we could sell that volume of apples to the farmers market. From the perspective of running a business, it was just good sense to keep a good public profile, and to make a little extra $$$ working the farmers market (which made an already long 'farmer's week' even longer. I agree with monty... that farmer (if they even were one) was 'preying on the foolish'.

2008 Sep 17
I went to the Farmer's Market in Metcalfe a couple weeks ago. Advertised were fresh organic local fruits and vegetables.

What I found was 1 table with cucumbers, tomatoes, carrots, cauliflower...all priced at least double than the grocery store. One table with baked goods, one with perserves, and one with fresh eggs. The rest of the Farmer's Market consisted of arts and crafts - probably about 35 tables.

Very disappointing compared to the Farmer's Market of years ago, when I used to live in Carp.

I left with 3 dozen eggs at $3.00 each. I was happy with that, but basically I will boycott it in the future unless they start getting more fresh produce and stop capitalizing and 'tricking' people by luring them in with false advertising.

I really didn't need to drive 15 kms for eggs.

2008 Sep 17
Good point PiO - at the Parkdale Market right now you can get some tremendous bargains in bulk. I got 1/4 bushel of the long sweet red peppers for 10 bucks. It was a good 20 or 30 peppers. Half of it made 4 cups of "roasted red pepper goop" for my pasta sauce. Speaking of which, it was 40 bucks for a bushel of roma tomatoes.

2008 Sep 17
my sister in law who produces beautiful cheese can barely afford to feed her cows as the price of hay has over doubled in the past year. We are paying over 30% more for flour in the restaurant where I work. If you speak to any food economist they will tell you that the era of cheap food is over. There are many factors involved from the rise in fuel costs to well just about anything. However it does not all have to be doom and gloom and if you still want cheap food than get involved. Join a CSA plant a vegetable garden, if you do not have room plant a community garden. Get your kids involved, there is nothing better for kids than to get their little hands dirty learning where their food comes from. (we did it when I was a kid)
On the point of small local farmers charging more most of them are like my sister in law. They do not have the economy of scale that an earthbound farm or huge farm in the Holland Marsh has, they can't bring in dozens of migrant workers to farm their crops (like in the Niagara and Okanagan regions for example)Keep in mind when you are feeding these fruits and veggies to your kids you are also feeding them lots of pesticides, gmos's and other lovelies.

2008 Sep 17
I have nothing against organics and hobby farmers, but people are living longer all the time, and they grew up on and still eat all the regular pesticide farmed foods too. I'll take my chances and save some much needed cash.

The small vendors will be saved for the wealthier than I or those who make it a priority in their lives and will pull funds from something else to get it.

While I plan on growing a few things next summer now that I have a yard to do it in, it certainly won't be enough to feed two of us for the summer. I'll fill the gaps getting produce at Food Basics and Loblaws, and maybe even treat myself to the slightly more expensive Farm Boy on occasion.

2008 Sep 17
Do you really think Farm Boy is more expensive than Loblaws? I always have known Loblaws to be the most expensive grocery store in general so I just boycott them except for my cats' food. The kitties are very picky, just like their mom.

I get produce on special at Food Basics (they're starting to clean up their act but you still have to be careful), and Farm Boy.

2008 Sep 17
Well, not really much more, just a tiny bit for the things I usualy buy. Maybe 5% difference on average though sometimes that will reverse.

I've been pretty happy with the Food Basics on 10th line. Before the summer, I lived in Vanier and mostly shopped at the Price Chopper on McArthur and was pretty happy with their staples too. Just not a big selection of the more exotic fruits and vegies, which I don't eat every day anyways.

2008 Sep 17
Food Basics in Herongate Mall replaced all their produce shelves, and I notice now that there are no fruit flies around. It was really bad before. Another place I stopped shopping was St. Laurent Fruit and Vegetables at Belfast. Terribly dirty and I saw moldy bread and meat there once.

Ok..straying off topic...hehe

:)

2008 Sep 18
I agree buying at a Farmers' Market can be considerably more expensive than at the local national grocery store. For example, I recently bought a Garlic Bulb from Acorn Creek Garden Farms at the Carp Farmers' Market and paid $ 2.00 for it (I would have paid a lot less per bulb if I had bought more than one -- for example a Garlic Braid). This past weekend, one Bulb of Garlic at Loblaws was selling for 79 cents. The Garlic at Loblaws was from China. So indeed, the Garlic I bought at Carp was more than twice the price than the one at Loblaws.

I agree this is sad. But I don't think it is the Farmer's fault, nor to I believe he is intentionally ripping me off. If anything it is a statement to the fact that food has become an impersonal big business, primarily being produced and run by groups and countries whom we have ultimately little or no connection to.

I also realize that until recently Canadians had very little to say about this delivery of our food chain. BUT, I truly believe this is beginning to change. We are becoming more educated about where our food is coming from, how it is produced, graded, inspected, transported, and marketed. Part of this is because of the Foodie Movement (such as the 100 Mile Diet), and part of it is because of the awareness that globablization isn't all that it was promised to be back in the 1960s and 1970s when we were fascinated to find fresh pineapples and coconuts in our grocery stores in the middle of Winter.

Times have changed... more and more people want some sort of relationship with their food, grower and market. For me that means I am more aware of where my food comes from... I now check that my fresh goods are Local-Ontario-Canada-USA in the order, then I make a judgement call if I am considering something outside of North America. I am careful about Veggies from Central and North America, Fish from Asian, and Fruits from Africa. Back in the 60s and 70s, many of these suppliers were our only sources year-round, now more and more hydrophonic and greenhouses are sprouting up in Canada, and providing what was once seasonal produce to us year-round.

Sometimes I am willing to weigh the odds (and take my chances with the unknown conditions) and buy the imported product, but more and more I am willing to pay the higher price to get something grown in Canada, be it from a Farmers' Market in the summertime, or the Organics counter in the Grocery Store in the wintertime.

I find it fascinating that the more things change, the more they stay the same. It has taken us 50 years to figure out that the food practices that were taken for granted in Canada during the first half of the 20th Century were actually better for us than those we practiced in the second half of that same Century. Growing our own food, or buying from a known source, canning, smoking, freezing, is our best bets for providing quality food for our families thru the winter. Which brings me back to the original comment that buying local can be expensive, but as others have pointed out, if you buy in bulk the price goes down considerably. We already have places that help Canadians prepare "Meals to Go for their Freezers" it makes me pause and wonder if in the future we will see places to help us "Stock our Pantry and Freezers".... or perhaps we'll go back to the custom of Cooking-Bees where groups of people got together socially to make quick work of the task... wouldn't that be interesting.

2008 Sep 19
Just to bring it back to point F&T. The original poster was not comparing imported produce, with local, and seeing a price difference, he was complaining the Ontario produce in grocery stores was MUCH cheaper than Ontario produce at the roadside stand. As FreshFoodie pointed out, the same farmer seems quite willing to sell to the Toronto food terminal for rates well below what they were charging at the roadside stand. I think the lesson for us all is that there is value (for the consumer) in being able to gauge the quality of the food they buy, and to search out the price point we can live with. I find many people (not intending to mean you Peter) complain about price or complain about quality, but if faced with a table full of produce would not be able to choose the 'best' pieces ( most fresh, not under-ripe, not over-ripe ). For many things, I have to admit I do not know how to gauge the product as well as I should.

2008 Sep 19
I think we're missing the issue that most of the farmers who sell at roadside stands or farmers markets, don't have the resources of farms that are selling to large chains and food terminals. The farms that Loblaws are using for example are huge affairs that have the economy of scale to offer cheap produce. Carlo Petrini the head of slow food said "there can be no gastronomy without social responsibility". Are we are all just looking for cheap groceries or are we, as some here have said looking for food that has a lineage we know of, that is farmed with ethical practices and is sustainable ?

2008 Sep 19
Good way of putting it Bruce - I do like to know the lineage of my food!

2008 Sep 19
Pete, you are correct and that I'm comparing 'semi local' (Ontario produce) to the very local farmers market/road stands. The common stuff I'm a pretty good judge of (tomatoes, cukes, etc etc), though there are lots I wouldn't know. That said, markets tend to be pretty similar to the grocery stores IMO. Except tomatoes, why do the little guys have such damn tastey tomatoes? :-)

Bruce: It is a bit if the chicken and the egg (yay food metaphore), they perhaps need to raise prices to get even, but maybe if they lowered they could sell more and have less waste.

Also, is there any guarantee that the little guy is any more ethical than the bigger guys? I don't think any of the market produce I purchased this summer was touted as organic either. I didn't play 20 questions with the farmers and don't really have the patience to investigate all the local farms.

For me though, I have to change priorities. I'll go on price first and if local is close on price it will get my vote, then ethics to an extent as well. If I know a local guy has bad ethics but is cheaper I might still skip by him, but rarely do I know the ins and outs of any one particular farm to judge its ethics.

I'm curious about those who do the seasonal vegetable programs where they deliver local fresh crops weekly. What are the prices like compared to a grocery store?

2008 Sep 19
I've been thinking about this, and I'm torn between feeling I'm getting ripped off and having apathy for farmer. As an example, compared to the high prices at the carp farmers market - which I'm very familiar with (buy at the end of the year from the garlic lady, much better deal gets you through winter), I bought a bigish (1/8th? bushel) of garlic - say 30 heads for $7 from Jean Talon market in Montreal. This was labeled as Quebec crop - so if I believe them whats the deal in ontario? Is it strictly volume? This no doubt was a reseller similar to the parkdale market approach - but the garlic is lovely and a really good deal. Hard to justify it at $2/head.

2008 Sep 19
Pete-In-Ottawa & Peter - OK, me bad... I had to go back and reread Peter's original post, I guess I just assumed he was comparing local produce to grocery produce in general, I didn't realize that he was infact comparing local to local. You are right, a whole other discussion.

Bruce-the-Chef - Probably is closer to the truth in this matter, although Loblaws etal, this summer has adopted a slogan of "Locally Grown" what does that really mean? Ok so they have these big pallets of tomatoes, peaches, carrots etc in baskets, so they look like they came from a local farmer, but did they? What is their definition of local? Tomatoes from Lemington vs the Ottawa Valley... sourced from some huge tomatoe farm? As you said I think it is a matter of scale, and Loblaws suppliers are HUGE.

and lastly back full circle...

Sourdough - I generally don't complain too much about the cost of goods at the Farmers' Market because I would rather buy their goods than those I find at Loblaws etc. But like you I have to wonder at the price when it comes to Quebec vs Ontario. I too have found that Farmers' Markets in Quebec are considerably cheaper (like half the price) vs those here in the Ottawa area. What's up with that? Perhaps it is because there are so many more garden farmers there producing goods for market (FACT), and thereby the prices are lower because of volume. Perhaps the LOCAL PRODUCE that Loblaws refers to is actually coming from these same Garden Farms in Quebec? Who knows? As Zym said wouldn't it be nice to know the lineage of our food.

2008 Sep 19
Since Sourdough mentioned Jean Talon market in Montreal I feel the need to chime in. My brother lives 200 metres from that market and he and his wife enjoy fantastic produce (not to mention breads, cheeses, and meats) year round at very good prices. I was there two weeks ago and the selection was incredible. The price of their organic produce was between 50% and 100% of the price we pay for non-organic produce at our markets! Yes, I was very jealous!

2008 Sep 19
See now... why can they afford to sell at that price and I have to pay so much above grocery store prices to buy local?

I keep getting told it is because the little guy has so much more overhead. Are taxes and expenses that much lower in Quebec?

2008 Sep 19
OK ... I'm about to do a test with local garlic vs. China garlic.

I got 10 bulbs from China, for two bucks, at Food Basics today and I plan on getting some local garlic at the Parkdale market on Saturday. I hope I do not have to pay 2 bucks per bulb there. (Is that what you payed, Food and Think ?)

I'm going to do some side by side testing.

Here are the testing criteria.

Fresh aroma, look and firmness. (I better get my camera ready)
Tasted fresh.
Cooked in olive oil, then tasted.
Roasted in my oven, then tasted.
Cooked with some butter and onion, then tasted.

Is anyone in Ottawa Foodieland interested in my results ?


2008 Sep 19
Very interested indeed!!! :-)

2008 Sep 19
I'm interested

Hope you're home is fully stocked with Scope! Yikes!

2008 Sep 19
Hey Monty, thanks for the chuckle.

I have something better than Scope ...... and I can swallow it ... It's called Dark Rhum !!

2008 Sep 19
Totally off topic (I am sorry)...Captain Caper, BF and I adore Old Sam rum!! We get it from friends/relatives in Newfoundland and I literally just finished an Old Sam rum and coke.

Back on topic...
I do find it conflicting to pay higher (sometimes much higher) prices for fruit and veg from the Farmer's Markets vs the supermarkets. I generally prefer farmer's markets when possible because the quality is normally very high... However, in certain cases they are exceptional(like the garlic dude and lady at the Ottawa Farmer's Market) we really love their russian red variety of garlic and they assure us that it will last until next March without sprouting or going mouldy. This is a worthy investment in my mind.

On that note, please share garlic results!

2008 Sep 20
Captain C - I'm loving the Garlic QA Test. I eagerly await your reports. And if your Garlic Test is half as fun as my Cocktail Olive Experiment was, you can count on having a lot of fans.

Fresh Foodie & Peter - I am POSITIVE that the reason Quebec produce is so much cheaper is the fact that there are so many garden farm operations in the St. Lawrence Valley. So Peter, it ties back into supply and demand. When you visit a Farmers' Market in Quebec there are 10x more farmers there selling their wares, and so inturn the prices are competitive, and of course you can also haggle a better deal... even more so if you are buying in volume for canning or freezing. In the end, the farmer just wants to get rid of his stuff, he doesn't want to take it back home... afterall there are only so many tomatoes (or jalapenos, a nod to our own Orleans Foodie) that a guy can possibly want or need.

2008 Sep 20
I don't know about vegetable farming,so sadly I can't comment on it.....but a dear friend and fellow pastry chef Amanda Hearty (who has left for the greener pastures of Vancouver a year ago or so) is the daughter of beef producing farmers. Her parents BOTH have jobs outside the farm. I would compare modern-day small scale agriculture to being an artist.....it is a labour of love rather than a money-making venture. You actually need to have a job outside the farm in order to be able to run a farm. This is a sad commentary on the state of present day small scale agriculture.

2008 Sep 23
There are a few things that make Local Farmer's Market (Market) Produce more than the local produce from the grocery store.

One thing is that the market is selling theirs with a "Reasonable" profit for the farmer. This profit might be higher when selling to you than to the gorcery stores. Also the grocery store is reselling it. IF they want to sell local produce at a loss so that you will come in an but a bottle of coke with a 150% mark up, and at the end of the check out they are profitable.

Second, the farmers that sell to grocery stores are much larger commercial farmers and they don't trudge back and forth to landsdown each weekend from Perth and pay a kid to stand there and sell their wares. They load it all up onto huge trucks with cheap labor and sell it all in one shot. OR they operate as co-operatives and sell it all in one shot. This commercial scale operations allow for economies of scale there by lowering the costs. As well, when making one sale in stead of many small sales they eliminate the risk associated with the storage and potential loss of their inventory.

Last is that there is a large demand compared to the small supply of the market produce. They charge twice as much as the grocery store and still sell out. So where there are people willing to pay it, there are people who will gladly sell it. There are also a bunch of subsidy issues but lets not get into that...