Elmdale House Tavern Sold ??? [General]

2012 Nov 2
Heard that the Elmdale has just been sold.

Not MORE condos in Hintonburg ... please ... no.

Can anyone confirm this ?

2012 Nov 2
I just picked it up on twitter - Whalesbone is going in there?

2012 Nov 2
From the owner on facebook

www.facebook.com

Nathalie Myles · 17 subscribers
about an hour ago via Mobile ·
Rumors are true. The Elmdale Tavern will change hands as of January 1st and it will no longer be a live music venue. Everything until then remains the same!

2012 Nov 2
Wow. Terrible news. I'm a little shocked.


2012 Nov 2
I heard Whalesbone as well. Whalesbone themselves said on Twitter that there will still be live music, though not as much as in the past.

"there will definately be an affiliation - the Elmdale will be similar but different"

2012 Nov 2
Looks like it might stay named the Elmdale, but will change, and is getting a kitchen which I guess means it won't be a tavern anymore is that right?

2012 Nov 2
Good to hear about the live music!


2012 Nov 3
Good to hear it's not just going to be another multi-story condo.(yet)

Kitchen going in is good.

Music on weekends is good.

My Hintonburg folk (and others) will be disappointed if there is a (complete) name change.


2012 Nov 4
From what I've seen, everything that the folks behind the Whalesbone have been involved with has been done with the utmost respect and integrity. I'm totally optimistic for what will happen with the Elmdale in their hands.

Oysters would only add to the pickled eggs and string cheese currently on offer, and I'm confident that the music aspect will be curated ably.

Heck, they might even move the price of a pint at the Elmdale closer to reasonable.

2012 Nov 4
This sounds pretty exciting. I'm hoping for tasty pints and smoked fish sandwiches.

2012 Nov 5
Good article (behind the Citizen's completely ineffectual paywall):
www.ottawacitizen.com

I think the change from dive to faux-dive is sad. I think West Ottawa is quickly having its roots pulled up. It's mostly inevitable, but I'll shed a tear for what's being lost, real places for real people.

2012 Nov 5
That's a great writeup Brian Mc ... reminds me a lot of Lommerzheim in Cologne, which I've written about on this site before.

ottawafoodies.com

At Lommi's everyone was equal, whether they were black, white, brown, yellow, rich, poor, abled, disabled or whatever. The place was run-down and that is the way people liked it. In fact when I was there in 2000 you could still see a corner of the room where Mr Lommerzheim started to paint - the customers got so upset with him doing that, that he stopped after the first couple of days and just left it.

Just a regular place, for regular people. Even foreigners were welcome and how! I was there with a Japanese friend of mine and we happened to be at a table where a guy was celebrating his birthday - so he kept buying us beers like everyone else at the table who were friends of his. ( They do birthdays backwards from us in Europe )

I am honoured and priveleged to have been at Lommerzheim in its heyday.

2012 Nov 5
Hey Brian Mc - do you think you're judging the change at the Elmdale a little prematurely? Whalesbone hasn't even officially announced this yet, let alone detail their intentions for the place.

2012 Nov 5
I think the change noted by Brian Mc has already happened from what I"ve seen

And it is only likely to head further in that direction under Whalesbone

2012 Nov 5
I'm no fortune teller, but I'd certainly be shocked if it remained (as much as it still is) a working man's tavern under Whalesbone management. I think quarts of 50 and Golden are a bit unlikely... unless they're ironic quarts. And Zym's right, it has already changed a great deal in the past five years.


2012 Nov 5
I would agree. The article isn't about the future changes at the Elmdale that will be inevitable under new ownership. It is a reminiscence of an Elmdale that is long gone and, frankly, not really relevant to the current ownership change.

2012 Nov 5
Josh Bishop (Whalesbone) will be on All In A Day at 4:15 today (Monday) to talk about the Elmdale. 91.5 FM

2012 Nov 5
Did anyone catch Josh Bishop (Whalesbone) on All In A Day Monday ? When he talked about the Elmdale ?

Please fill us in.


2012 Nov 5
Not as much music, respect for the history, name will include "Elmdale," motif / font will be retained, "tavern" in name might be retained but not 100% sure yet, shows on weekends, etc.

You can listen to the interview here, it's about 11 minutes long. www.cbc.ca

Column in the Citizen posted tonight that details some of the concerns raised in this thread.

www.ottawacitizen.com

2012 Nov 6
The Elmdale will change. It has to change.

2012 Nov 6
I think they'll fit right in with the Lulululemon/Bridgehead/cupcake crowd. They're doing a very faint whitewash of the old establishment to keep the neighbourhood vibe intact, but I predict it will change in ways not yet foreseen. It cannot be as it was. That way no longer fits into that area. That area is changing. I saw this coming 5 years ago which is why we moved out. Hintonburg/Westboro is the new Glebe.

Find out where the gays and artists are moving into (because it's cheap and hip and creative) and then take that over and start charging double the rents. That drives out all the cool people who can't afford to live there anymore because nobody in this town has any style and can afford to pay an artist a real wage for their work. Then we end up with another built up area with high rents that people have to bus into in order to be seen/cool because nobody thought about parking concerns. The condos go up to intensify the concentration of people in the area, driving rents up even more and driving out the people who can't afford to live there anymore ... and I think I've crammed enough rants into this post already.

Whalesbone taking over the Elmdale is just a symptom of what has been happening to the area. Is it a good thing? I can't say. I just think it isn't a good thing to me. That's my opinion.

2012 Nov 6
I have to genuinely ask: why the resistance to development? Do we really want some of the closest neghbourhoods to downtown to stay, I'll say it, sh*tty? Have any of you been to Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland etc. to see what happens when gentrification doesn't happen and all development happens 15 km from downtown? Systemic ghetto-ization and urban decay.

I'm not orignally from Ottawa so I can't share the romanticism of Hintonburg's former glory but I am seeing a pleasant example of the symbiotic nature of a vibrant city's development.

Young, hip, creative artist-types are always going to have to seek the cheapest areas of any city because they don't make any money - no matter what city they are in. This is no different in Mexico City, Paris or New York. Once an affordable area has been deemed suffciently cool, developers aseptically package it for the more affleunt and the cycle starts again. I'd rather see this than the alternative. Ottawa needs more dense development and gentrification in the immediate downtown area.

I'm geniunely not trying to troll here, but I admit that I never quite grasp the dominant ideologies of this board.

2012 Nov 6
See Rizak, you are a TRUE hipster! You got outta dodge BEFORE it became the cool place to be!


2012 Nov 6
I think people who have a negative view of this purchase really don't have an idea of what the Whalesbone is about - I'd say the Elmdale is in very competent hands with the Whalesbone team.

For all the people who are crying about the Elmdale, where were you all those years that they needed your business? Don't worry so much, just a few blocks away the Carleton Tavern is still operating and they need your business.


2012 Nov 6
"...I admit that I never quite grasp the dominant ideologies of this board."

Tracinho, I'd bet anything that the quiet majority share your views. The loudest voices have rarely been representative of the masses... neither here, nor in other aspects of life. :-)

2012 Nov 6
It is impossible to gauge the dominant ideologies of message boards! Many people don't care enough about a subject to expound on it.

Is development good or bad? It's neither: it just is. Everybody's going to feel sorry to see the "good old days" pass them by. But I don't think you'll hear many (non-Libertarian nutjob (let the flaming begin)) people complain about the increases to our tax base and the resultant increase in access to municipal services and public transit.

Next time you guys see me at The Rochester for [REDACTED], let me tell you the tale of my next-door neighbour and her agenda to stop all development in and around our block of townhouses.

2012 Nov 6
I'm not against development, I just said it was sad to see a landmark fall victim to it. I'm not proposing that we outlaw private sales of businesses.

Local culture and folklore is important and places like Vanier, Hintonburg, and the Glebe have long been breeding grounds for characters and stories that mean a great deal to native Ottawans. I think gentrification has the opposite effect. We end up with "authentic" (to run headlong into the hipster thread) businesses that are anything but. We get restaurants and bars that could be plunked down in any well-to-do area on the planet and not seem out of place. Like I said, it's inevitable, but that doesn't mean we can't mourn the passing of these chunks of Ottawa history.

2012 Nov 6
I hear what you're saying, but they'll become chunks of the next generation's version of Ottawa history. If they don't, somewhere else will. History isn't made by venues, history is what happens in them. People create and own that history.

Gentrification is good, because it encourages people to go out and make their own marks. None of our children want to go and drink, fight, fall in love and generally do their growing up in the same places we did.

2012 Nov 6
I don't know about that Johnny. Would I be wrong in suggesting that you aren't quite so blasé about the decline of the independent English pub?

2012 Nov 6
Yes. The independent English pub still exists, it has just had to up its game. Now we see a better standard of food, more care taken over the choice and quality of beer provided and a general level of thought and care taken over the running of such establishments. That it has been at the cost of the crappier ones is an altogether good thing, I think.

Dive bars continue to exist and always will. They just won't necessarily be the dive bars of our youth.

2012 Nov 8
I'm definitely not against development either, I just wish it were done with more respect for neighbourhoods and for people. All this infill housing is slowly forcing families out of downtown because there are no regulations about what you are allowed to build in term of livable space for a family. And believe me my standards are pretty low living in a 1000 sq ft house with a family of 5. But we have 3 bedrooms at least - try finding a 3 bedroom new build anywhere between Westboro and St Laurent. Good luck.

And in general developers just don't seem to have any respect for trying to fit in. Some do, but not many. Look at these square monstrosities that are going up everywhere. I've seen ones that are definitely fitting in - but most of them stick out like sore thumbs like the one on my street.

And I will always lament the loss of an unpretentious place where regular people can go and have a beer. Of course as I already noted, that time is long past for the Elmdale. Yes, as someone noted, the good ol' Carleton is still there, though!

Honestly I think a lot of my neighbourhood should be razed - but do it respectfully and give the existing people a place to live. Here is an idea - go into a street and buy 4 or 5 adjacent homes, and build a row house with twice as many units than that but each has a decent amount of space like 1200 sq ft with 3 bedrooms or even 1500 sq ft. Let the original 4 or 5 families move back into a new house and sell the other units to pay for it all. Or build a bit higher and put 3x as many in - certainly someone can make money off that.

I find it near impossible to believe a house costs anywhere near what they sell for even accounting for labour, so developers have to be making money hand-over-fist more than they did even 10 years ago. They need to have a lot more conditions put on them - as it stands they pretty much rule the city and that is just not right. I actually heard an old developer on the radio a year or so ago talking about this - he was one of the guys who built the original Barrhaven and he was saying developers today have WAY too much control over the city.

And how about making them do some things more eco friendly? It is 2012 for cripes sakes - get with the program. The place going in across from me has all the big picture windows on the fecking north wall, and teeny tiny windows on the south wall. WTF are they doing?

2012 Nov 9
An interesting take on it

offhand.ca

2012 Nov 9
The last paragraph was ridiculous. She's grieving the loss of the place when it's been made clear (in her post no less) that not much will actually change, talks about the possibility of the tavern being less welcoming to low-income folk (isn't the Elmdale one of the most expensive places in the city for a pint??) and lastly wishes Josh Bishop would address her concerns when he's been doing exactly that all over Twitter, did a radio interview and was quoted in the very story she linked to. Not to mention the whole thing came about because a bartender at the Elmdale "leaked" the news when it wasn't to be released yet.

2012 Nov 10
She said "welcoming to lower income folk" - keyword "welcoming". Even if beers are expensive now it is still a place where the former patrons can easily feel at home. Just by the general atmosphere. And you can take your own food in so a meal and a pint can be pretty cheap overall.

You need to look beyond just the cost of the pint, which was not at all what she was talking about.

2012 Nov 10
So they were there at OWFF last night, and gave me a card - it is to become the Elmdale Oyster House and Tavern. Not too much in the way of details, but the oysters they were serving were excellent.

2012 Nov 10
Oyster House and Tavern? There's an oxymoron!

Give me a break!

2012 Nov 10
Why, what's the problem with that?

2012 Nov 10
Once upon a time both oysters and Taverns were things that the working classes enjoyed...

2012 Nov 10
Quite. The two go together pretty well - oysters are scruffy, messy, rough and ready things to eat. I'm excited for what they're going to do with it.

2012 Nov 11
Well once upon a time the working class were forced to eat lobster too, but that's not generally what you associate with them today. In fact the opposite. And so it is with oyxters too.

I dunno it just seems like an awfully contrived and pretentious name

2012 Nov 11
If you want to know what a real working class tavern looks like, go to a working class city like Windsor and enjoy cheap draft and horrible greasy burgers with your barfights. Oysters will not ruin the "vibe" of the Elmdale.

2012 Nov 11
Having grown up (or not) in the mean streets ( or not) of Montreal , I spent a lot of time in the old Taverns of that not so fair city. The recurring theme of this thread is one of nostalgia. Saying that, I must ask in the context of different wishes and needs, what did you all miss?

A) the spit and sawdust of the old days?

B) the restriction of women?

C) the draft beer in tiny glasses that you ordered by the table (and very cheap)?

D) full on smoking?

E) no children?

F) pigs ' knuckles?

G) all day drinking?

H) extreme drinking to the point of intoxication?

If you said no to all the above then you do not miss old Taverns, you just want what you want. I'm not being critical but you will prefer the new incarnation of the Elmdale.

But, please do not call it a Tavern.


2012 Nov 11
It is ridiculous to suggest all of those things are required for it to be a "tavern" - just check the definition for goodness sakes

dictionary.reference.com

I will give the place a fair shake in spite of the stupid name. What I will lament if it disappears is a place where anyone can go and feel at home, and I suppose as far as that goes it is probably moreso a place like this under the current owners than under the previous ones. Here is hoping Whalesbone does not screw that up. This neighbourhood already has enough pricey restaurants which most long-time residents cannot afford. I know I can't afford most of them.

The odd time I can afford to go out for a beer, that is where I like to go. The same is true for a lot of people around here and that is what the offhand link was talking about above - a place where people are welcome regardless of income. Add a few 45 dollar plates like most of the places around here and it sure will be enough to turn me away.

Looking at Whalesbone's existing menu online (just looking at prices) looks promising at least ...

2012 Nov 11
45 dollar plates? In most of the places around where you are? Really?

2012 Nov 12
Well I don't want to name names because some of those places have owners who are regulars here. And yes they have cheaper stuff too but with 45 dollar plates comes a fancy-pants interior with trendy dishes that are long and skinny or triangular or square or whatever the heck the hipsters are looking for these days. Even with the cheaper plates all these other things give a 'fancy pants' feel to the place which will turn off most regular Joes and Janes ...

EDIT : OK I just checked some menus online and my memory does not serve me well on prices. The places I was thinking of seem to top out in the 35 dollar range, not 45. Just the same my other comments above hold true - it is the general atmosphere that can be unwelcoming to Joe and Jane Average. Even 25 dollar plates as the norm are unaffordable - that's certainly even out of my range on a regular basis. And do you feel welcome in whatever you are wearing? Yes, I know that an awful lot of people like to have a place that is a bit dressy and that's fine - but there still have to be places for folks who don't go for that. Where they don't feel out of place coming as they are.

We'll see how it goes ...

2012 Nov 12
Jeepers, folks! The Elmdale has been sold and it will be what it will be. Speculation and premature judgment are kind of a waste of everyone's time. All things considered, it's in pretty good hands.

Let's see what it becomes and then comment on what it is rather than what it could be.

Now see what you've done! You all made me use the word 'jeepers' and that is not okay! Hahaha... ;-)

2012 Nov 12
:-)

2012 Nov 12
Jeepers FF! I never did get answers to my questions on my stumble down memory lane ;-)

2012 Nov 14
I'm not sure if those who are worried about the Elmdale getting all "high class" and "pretentious" have ever set foot in the Whalesbone. No, it is not cheap, but quality seafood rarely is. What it isn't is pretentious. It is not a dress-up and feel snooty place, or even close to that. Sounds like the only thing that will change at the Elmdale will be more food, and a little less music.

2013 Feb 13
They need some cooks ... this from the interwebs :

I need cooks! I have 3-4 positions I need to fill with various levels of experience. If you are interested or know someone who is please email c.v. to phildenny@gmail.com or message me here.