Advertising in the Forums [Site]
2007 May 22
Don't worry kmennie, the problem will take care of itself before too long. Another month or two and this thread will take so long to load that nobody will read it anymore anyway :-)
I do understand Fresh Foodie's dilemma. I run a very popular website for beer and brewing and try my best to let anyone post what they want. I think there have only been 2 times in some 6 years that I've actually censored anyone (aside from obvious porn spam posts). Though that having been said this one probably would have been cut on my site given like you said the person isn't contributing to this site otherwise. Pretty sure all the ones I've cut from my site were cases of advertising by a non-contributor. But still just the same, it's not an easy position to be in and not an easy decision to make. And the first time is always the hardest.
The advice to just ignore it does work. For some reason I guess just morbid curiosity I keep clicking on it though ;-)
I do understand Fresh Foodie's dilemma. I run a very popular website for beer and brewing and try my best to let anyone post what they want. I think there have only been 2 times in some 6 years that I've actually censored anyone (aside from obvious porn spam posts). Though that having been said this one probably would have been cut on my site given like you said the person isn't contributing to this site otherwise. Pretty sure all the ones I've cut from my site were cases of advertising by a non-contributor. But still just the same, it's not an easy position to be in and not an easy decision to make. And the first time is always the hardest.
The advice to just ignore it does work. For some reason I guess just morbid curiosity I keep clicking on it though ;-)
2007 May 22
Two points:
* There's a fine line between event announcements and advertising
* chocoholic did follow our suggestion to restrict the frequency of posting to weekly "announcements"
And here's a point for chocoholic: as you've noticed, people are free to comment as they please here. If users object each time you post an ad here you may wish to consider finding another venue for your message. Contrary to popular belief, there *is* such a thing as bad publicity. Others in your situation have posted small ads in their profile with the expectation that people will happen upon them. That is far more subtle and classy than spam.
I do agree that the chinese cooking class announcements are quite boring and this topic is quickly stagnating but I don't like playing god in situations that are not totally obvious. I will shut this one down if I receive enough complaints. :-)
* There's a fine line between event announcements and advertising
* chocoholic did follow our suggestion to restrict the frequency of posting to weekly "announcements"
And here's a point for chocoholic: as you've noticed, people are free to comment as they please here. If users object each time you post an ad here you may wish to consider finding another venue for your message. Contrary to popular belief, there *is* such a thing as bad publicity. Others in your situation have posted small ads in their profile with the expectation that people will happen upon them. That is far more subtle and classy than spam.
I do agree that the chinese cooking class announcements are quite boring and this topic is quickly stagnating but I don't like playing god in situations that are not totally obvious. I will shut this one down if I receive enough complaints. :-)
2007 May 22
I am a long time reader but a first time poster (and I am sure that because of this my comments will be dismissed by some as unreliable) however, I could not resist this topic.
I find it very unfortunate that some users feel it is appropriate to start blocking users. This is the beauty of the internet and freedom of expression. This is not a private site and the terms of use (if I could call them that) when I registered for an account did not prohibit "advertising". Chocoholic is doing nothing more than providing information to a community that is interested in food. Clearly there have been some users that are interested in these cooking lessons and would have probably otherwise missed out on the experience were it not for this site.
I am sure that users of this site are well aware of the information being posted by Chocoholic, and if they are not interested, they do not have to read the postings (in fact the only reason I read the posting was I saw that Zymurgist had made recent comments).
I guess my point is, the more information that is available, the better.
One final thought, I think that pushing the envelop of free advertising - as kmennie puts it - was accomplished a long time ago. What else do you call posting comments that recommended and rave about any given restaurant?
That is my two cents, take it for what you will.
I find it very unfortunate that some users feel it is appropriate to start blocking users. This is the beauty of the internet and freedom of expression. This is not a private site and the terms of use (if I could call them that) when I registered for an account did not prohibit "advertising". Chocoholic is doing nothing more than providing information to a community that is interested in food. Clearly there have been some users that are interested in these cooking lessons and would have probably otherwise missed out on the experience were it not for this site.
I am sure that users of this site are well aware of the information being posted by Chocoholic, and if they are not interested, they do not have to read the postings (in fact the only reason I read the posting was I saw that Zymurgist had made recent comments).
I guess my point is, the more information that is available, the better.
One final thought, I think that pushing the envelop of free advertising - as kmennie puts it - was accomplished a long time ago. What else do you call posting comments that recommended and rave about any given restaurant?
That is my two cents, take it for what you will.
2007 May 22
Thanks for the feedback, Food 4 Thought. If this discussion prompted you to post for the first time then I take your input very seriously indeed. :-)
kmennie, one of the features on my to-do list is to allow individual users to "unsubscribe" from a particular forum topic. With such a feature in place, you could unsubscribe from this one and never see new postings again.
kmennie, one of the features on my to-do list is to allow individual users to "unsubscribe" from a particular forum topic. With such a feature in place, you could unsubscribe from this one and never see new postings again.
2007 May 23
I sort of agree with Food 4 Thought...
This is my deux cents:
Why would you click on this forum post if it bothers you THAT much? There's lots of forum posts that I'm not interested in, soooo, therefore, I don't read them. It's as simple as that. Besides, I've met her and been to her class, she's is super sweet and is just trying to spread the love of chinese food!
This is my deux cents:
Why would you click on this forum post if it bothers you THAT much? There's lots of forum posts that I'm not interested in, soooo, therefore, I don't read them. It's as simple as that. Besides, I've met her and been to her class, she's is super sweet and is just trying to spread the love of chinese food!
2007 May 23
"I find it very unfortunate that some users feel it is appropriate to start blocking users."
Huh? It's well-established practice.
See especially:
en.wikipedia.org
Not blocking what you disliked on-line would mean most e-mail would be unusable. Don't you automatically discard as much spam as possible from your e-mail? Same deal.
"Why would you click on this forum post if it bothers you THAT much?"
Point, but -- why should I have my quick scanning of every new post aggravated by junk repeated posts advertising something? If many more people start flogging a food-related service here, it'll quickly become unusable as a forum.
"she's is super sweet"
No, she's not. She's just a garden-variety spammer, to me. Anybody who does not participate in a community beyond posting advertising to it, and objecting to people who object to advertising, is rather the opposite of "super sweet" to me.
I make it a solid policy to not support anything that's been inappropriately advertised on-line. Why not give your money and interest to a business that's paid for its advertising and placed it in a traditionally acceptable place for same?
(And I still can't believe somebody confusing chicken as vegetarian gets any credit from a foodie community, but that's really neither here nor there at this point...)
Say yes to this, and you're setting yourself up to say yes to all sorts of garbage in the future. Where do you draw the line? Allow a bit now, and it'll be way harder to disallow it when it gets out of control.
Huh? It's well-established practice.
See especially:
en.wikipedia.org
Not blocking what you disliked on-line would mean most e-mail would be unusable. Don't you automatically discard as much spam as possible from your e-mail? Same deal.
"Why would you click on this forum post if it bothers you THAT much?"
Point, but -- why should I have my quick scanning of every new post aggravated by junk repeated posts advertising something? If many more people start flogging a food-related service here, it'll quickly become unusable as a forum.
"she's is super sweet"
No, she's not. She's just a garden-variety spammer, to me. Anybody who does not participate in a community beyond posting advertising to it, and objecting to people who object to advertising, is rather the opposite of "super sweet" to me.
I make it a solid policy to not support anything that's been inappropriately advertised on-line. Why not give your money and interest to a business that's paid for its advertising and placed it in a traditionally acceptable place for same?
(And I still can't believe somebody confusing chicken as vegetarian gets any credit from a foodie community, but that's really neither here nor there at this point...)
Say yes to this, and you're setting yourself up to say yes to all sorts of garbage in the future. Where do you draw the line? Allow a bit now, and it'll be way harder to disallow it when it gets out of control.
2007 May 23
kmennie's last point is interesting to me. I can't really see how it may be harder to shut down garbage in the future if Chocoholic is allowed to continue her posts. I suppose FF might feel himself bound to maintain a transparent and consistently applied policy regarding content in order to preserve users' faith in the fairness of the Ottawa Foodies environment. But really, he's not bound by precedent and there would likely be no downside to arbitrarily smiting down spam and spammers should they present an increased problem in the future.
Something said by Food 4 Thought also caught my eye: "This is not a private site and the terms of use (if I could call them that) when I registered for an account did not prohibit "advertising"."
Actually, it is a private site and as there is no consideration (or economic value) flowing from the users to the administrator, there is no contractual relationship established on which users could enforce any "rights" they may feel they have. The terms of use found in the FAQ could therefore be changed at any time. FF could randomly start playing God all over the place and remove posts or users. He could even ghost-edit people's posts too maik tehm luk lyke thay kant spehl. Hay! Stahp idt!
We enjoy this site in the warm and cozy world of a benevolent autocracy. Good thing FF tries to be so fair with everything.
Something said by Food 4 Thought also caught my eye: "This is not a private site and the terms of use (if I could call them that) when I registered for an account did not prohibit "advertising"."
Actually, it is a private site and as there is no consideration (or economic value) flowing from the users to the administrator, there is no contractual relationship established on which users could enforce any "rights" they may feel they have. The terms of use found in the FAQ could therefore be changed at any time. FF could randomly start playing God all over the place and remove posts or users. He could even ghost-edit people's posts too maik tehm luk lyke thay kant spehl. Hay! Stahp idt!
We enjoy this site in the warm and cozy world of a benevolent autocracy. Good thing FF tries to be so fair with everything.
2007 May 23
Yeah... Whoa! kmennie ... you are totally out of line. The only good point you make is that this is FreshFoodie's site, and basically what he says is law. He has made his thoughts pretty clear, but you choose to spew your own web-iquette biases. Maybe you should advertise a class on forum etiquette so we can all be just like you? And kmennie, you really should apologise to both foodlover and chocoholic. Not everyone understands the flame-age that is normal in the blogosphere, and you have no right to say that chocoholic is not 'super sweet' unless you have met her. About all you can say is you think that she has poor forum etiquette. I have met her, and she is sweet, if perhaps a little more web-naive than you guys. Pick on someone your own size (and yes.. that would be me).
2007 May 23
"FF could randomly start playing God all over the place..."
Hehe.. count it on my little bro to point that one out! ;-) He's right of course, although those of you who know me personally also know that integrity is important to me and I treat online communities and individuals with the respect I think they deserve.
Two more points:
* So far this site is dealing with one message per week that *might* be interpreted as spam. Compared to my Inbox, this does not register as a spam crisis!
* I think if kmennie can block the Chinese Cooking Class forum topic then she will be happy.
...and by extension we are all happy! Problem solved! :-)
Hehe.. count it on my little bro to point that one out! ;-) He's right of course, although those of you who know me personally also know that integrity is important to me and I treat online communities and individuals with the respect I think they deserve.
Two more points:
* So far this site is dealing with one message per week that *might* be interpreted as spam. Compared to my Inbox, this does not register as a spam crisis!
* I think if kmennie can block the Chinese Cooking Class forum topic then she will be happy.
...and by extension we are all happy! Problem solved! :-)
2007 May 24
kmennie: STOP the personal attack! I've never met you, of course, you have no right to say that "she's just a garden-variety spammer, to me". You have to apologize to foodlover and me.
As for the advertising in the forum and "block this user" (chocoholic), everyone knows they are not my business, nor yours, but Fresh Foodie's -- the owner of this site. Remember, no web-master arbitrarily blocks user(s) regardless of the posted terms of use and rules, based only on YOUR dislike. Frankly speaking, you might achieve that goal by creating your own web site.
As for the advertising in the forum and "block this user" (chocoholic), everyone knows they are not my business, nor yours, but Fresh Foodie's -- the owner of this site. Remember, no web-master arbitrarily blocks user(s) regardless of the posted terms of use and rules, based only on YOUR dislike. Frankly speaking, you might achieve that goal by creating your own web site.
2007 May 24
"You have to apologize to foodlover and to me."
Huh? I really didn't have a problem (or an interest) in this thread til this point. I really don't have a problem with your cooking class thread, although I do agree that it might become a problem if EVERYONE with a restaurant, a cookbook, a cooking class etc takes advantage of this forum.
This weekend's brunch menu at Benny's Bistro is.....(just kidding folks, but do you get my point here?)
I don't agree with everything that kmennie is saying, and I happily ignore topics that aren't of interest to me....but I don't see how it's any more ok for you to tell her what to do than it is for her to tell YOU what to do. At least she participates in the forum for purposes other than promoting her own business.
Huh? I really didn't have a problem (or an interest) in this thread til this point. I really don't have a problem with your cooking class thread, although I do agree that it might become a problem if EVERYONE with a restaurant, a cookbook, a cooking class etc takes advantage of this forum.
This weekend's brunch menu at Benny's Bistro is.....(just kidding folks, but do you get my point here?)
I don't agree with everything that kmennie is saying, and I happily ignore topics that aren't of interest to me....but I don't see how it's any more ok for you to tell her what to do than it is for her to tell YOU what to do. At least she participates in the forum for purposes other than promoting her own business.
2007 May 24
STOP the personal attack! I've never met you, of course, you have no right to say that "she's just a garden-variety spammer, to me". You have to apologize...
No, I don't "have to apologise." You are 'just a spammer' to me, precisely because I've never met you (and have seen nothing but the ads from you on this site).
That said, I'll go with majority opinion -- which is, I think, 'enough out of kmennie on this one...' (and, at this point, an entirely reasonable sentiment).
No, I don't "have to apologise." You are 'just a spammer' to me, precisely because I've never met you (and have seen nothing but the ads from you on this site).
That said, I'll go with majority opinion -- which is, I think, 'enough out of kmennie on this one...' (and, at this point, an entirely reasonable sentiment).
2007 May 24
Blah. I've tried to avoid giving my 2 cents because I personally find this bickering a bit boring, however I would like to extend my hope that we can all reach a reasonable solution. My thoughts on the matter (not that anyone cares at this point I'm sure):
1) I also do not like advertising posted on this site. This does not only extend to ongoing "spam" on the forum, but also to people that post links to their own blogs on their reviews, and individual forum posts. I personally find it to be in poor taste and is taking advantage of someone else's space for your own gains, which while not against the law, I personally simply find it to be kind of a jerky thing to do.
2) Fresh Foodie: I would really like to see a feature where you can "unsubscribe" to certain forum threads. Yes it's true that if I don't like the thread, I don't have to click on it, however that does not take into account my excitement when I first log-in and see that there is new forum activity, only to be disappointed that it is only advertising. Honestly, when I see that little orange bar that announces new activity, I genuinely get happy...until I click on the forum and see that its only THAT thread again (note: this includes, but is not specific to Chocoholics thread, there are others that go on and on that I have no interest in as well).
3) "Frankly speaking, you might achieve that goal by creating your own web site". Well yes, that's true, however if you choose to post advertising on someone else's website, and are of the opinion that it is "not against any rules", you too have to understand that not everyone is going to like it and it is "not against any rules" for people to announce their displeasure. Someone could turn around and say the same thing to you - if you want to advertise without anyone complain, then create your own website. This is a 2-way street and there is no entirely right or wrong answer, only differing opinions. There are obviously pros and cons on both fronts.
1) I also do not like advertising posted on this site. This does not only extend to ongoing "spam" on the forum, but also to people that post links to their own blogs on their reviews, and individual forum posts. I personally find it to be in poor taste and is taking advantage of someone else's space for your own gains, which while not against the law, I personally simply find it to be kind of a jerky thing to do.
2) Fresh Foodie: I would really like to see a feature where you can "unsubscribe" to certain forum threads. Yes it's true that if I don't like the thread, I don't have to click on it, however that does not take into account my excitement when I first log-in and see that there is new forum activity, only to be disappointed that it is only advertising. Honestly, when I see that little orange bar that announces new activity, I genuinely get happy...until I click on the forum and see that its only THAT thread again (note: this includes, but is not specific to Chocoholics thread, there are others that go on and on that I have no interest in as well).
3) "Frankly speaking, you might achieve that goal by creating your own web site". Well yes, that's true, however if you choose to post advertising on someone else's website, and are of the opinion that it is "not against any rules", you too have to understand that not everyone is going to like it and it is "not against any rules" for people to announce their displeasure. Someone could turn around and say the same thing to you - if you want to advertise without anyone complain, then create your own website. This is a 2-way street and there is no entirely right or wrong answer, only differing opinions. There are obviously pros and cons on both fronts.
2007 May 24
"...you too have to understand that not everyone is going to like it and it is "not against any rules" for people to announce their displeasure."
Perhaps, nothing can make EVERYONE happy on the earth. Similarly, I've never expected that everyone is going to like my ad. Also, I don't mind people announce their displeasure and complains. However, the bottom line is that s/he should not use insulting words, such as "garden-variety spammer" as kmennie used to me.
To respect others is to respect yourself.
Perhaps, nothing can make EVERYONE happy on the earth. Similarly, I've never expected that everyone is going to like my ad. Also, I don't mind people announce their displeasure and complains. However, the bottom line is that s/he should not use insulting words, such as "garden-variety spammer" as kmennie used to me.
To respect others is to respect yourself.
2007 May 28
Jumping into the fray here.
I do think that a good rule of thumb might be to regard this site as an extension of FF's livingroom, and to act accordingly. This sentiment is common practice in more of the "genteel" online communities, of which I regard this site to be one. Bottom line, this is FF's site, he sets the rules, and we are his guests.
Insults and repeat announcements would not be welcome in that venue, why would they be so here? I am not suggesting that FF would not like heated discussion and vibrant riposte, but I wouldnt presume to speak for him anyway. This is all suggestion and my 5 bucks worth!
I do think that a good rule of thumb might be to regard this site as an extension of FF's livingroom, and to act accordingly. This sentiment is common practice in more of the "genteel" online communities, of which I regard this site to be one. Bottom line, this is FF's site, he sets the rules, and we are his guests.
Insults and repeat announcements would not be welcome in that venue, why would they be so here? I am not suggesting that FF would not like heated discussion and vibrant riposte, but I wouldnt presume to speak for him anyway. This is all suggestion and my 5 bucks worth!
2007 May 28
Now if you would kindly join me in the dining room... ;-)
You're most welcome, Pete. I feel quite privileged to be the caretaker of so much great foodie information. I'm also really pleased with the overall quality -- especially given our surprisingly large user base.
And thanks for your $5 worth, Micaylah. :-)
You're most welcome, Pete. I feel quite privileged to be the caretaker of so much great foodie information. I'm also really pleased with the overall quality -- especially given our surprisingly large user base.
And thanks for your $5 worth, Micaylah. :-)
kmennie
Ah, I see we get to test the "block this user" option...
Fresh Foodie -- I'm surprised. This isn't even a contributor to the site or anything. Once a week = still spam. And that is a pathetic defence. So what? And, so -- it's good that people who're just browsing through can see advertising? Good for who? And just think how much it would bring things down if even just five threads became permanently taken up by someplace repeating an ad.
(Edited to add: "block this user" blocks messages, but not the postings. Argh.)