Lansdowne Live [General]
2009 Sep 13
The Lansdown Live proposal would be reasonable, provided that the Preston street market started up and the Ottawa Farmer's Market moved there.
communities.canada.com
communities.canada.com
2009 Sep 28
If anyone is interested in pursuing this further the City of Ottawa will be holding a series of public consultations beginning tonight: www.ottawa.ca
2009 Sep 28
He's a hardcore libertarian, anti-union and vocal opponent of public healthcare in the US. I don't have much time for libertarians... especially rich ones.
www.sadlyno.com
www.sadlyno.com
2009 Sep 30
I had to register just to respond to this thread. I have lived in the US and shopped at Whole Foods many times. Believe me, if Whole Foods came here it would instantly be the best grocery store in Ottawa, a thousand fold. I like the Farmers' Market but every form of progress requires some change. The opposition seems to reflect a distrust and suspicion of anything coming from "outside," whether it be another country or even just beyond eastern Ontario. The criticisms seem to be:
1) Whole Foods is a chain. Well, so what? Shouldn't we want the large grocery chains to sell healthy, nutritious, delicious food instead of the processed garbage and sad produce you get at the existing major grocery stores in Ottawa? Grocery chains are not going away, and Whole Foods provides a much higher quality than others.
2) The CEO is a right winger. Guess what, so are the executives of most large corporations. Do you have an account at a bank? Own a car? Wear clothing? Why are you singling out grocery stores as requiring political purity in their executives? Also, I think the idea that you wouldn't shop somewhere because the CEO of the company opposes "public healthcare in the US" is even more silly; the healthcare debate going on there is very complex and it's possible for reasonable people to disagree about what the role of the government should be--what would you think if a lot of Americans started boycotting any Canadian company whose CEO wasn't in favour of private health insurance? Why is the way that Americans set up their healthcare system any business of Canadians?
3) The Farmers' Market might be hurt. There are cities all over North America that have Whole Foods and vibrant farmers' markets as well. Perhaps it will need to move, but Ottawa is not a very dense city and there are plenty of places it could go. I live across the canal from the Glebe--we have our own farmers' market in our neighbourhood, and I don't see why the whole city should be deprived of a lovely and much needed modern grocery store just because Glebe residents insist theirs must stay at Lansdowne. Maybe the Glebe will wind up with a smaller one like other neighbourhoods have, and the major one will move to Preston--this would hardly be the end of the world.
I'll just conclude by reiterating that Whole Foods is on an entirely higher level than any of the existing Ottawa grocery stores. If you haven't shopped there you really don't know what you are missing.
1) Whole Foods is a chain. Well, so what? Shouldn't we want the large grocery chains to sell healthy, nutritious, delicious food instead of the processed garbage and sad produce you get at the existing major grocery stores in Ottawa? Grocery chains are not going away, and Whole Foods provides a much higher quality than others.
2) The CEO is a right winger. Guess what, so are the executives of most large corporations. Do you have an account at a bank? Own a car? Wear clothing? Why are you singling out grocery stores as requiring political purity in their executives? Also, I think the idea that you wouldn't shop somewhere because the CEO of the company opposes "public healthcare in the US" is even more silly; the healthcare debate going on there is very complex and it's possible for reasonable people to disagree about what the role of the government should be--what would you think if a lot of Americans started boycotting any Canadian company whose CEO wasn't in favour of private health insurance? Why is the way that Americans set up their healthcare system any business of Canadians?
3) The Farmers' Market might be hurt. There are cities all over North America that have Whole Foods and vibrant farmers' markets as well. Perhaps it will need to move, but Ottawa is not a very dense city and there are plenty of places it could go. I live across the canal from the Glebe--we have our own farmers' market in our neighbourhood, and I don't see why the whole city should be deprived of a lovely and much needed modern grocery store just because Glebe residents insist theirs must stay at Lansdowne. Maybe the Glebe will wind up with a smaller one like other neighbourhoods have, and the major one will move to Preston--this would hardly be the end of the world.
I'll just conclude by reiterating that Whole Foods is on an entirely higher level than any of the existing Ottawa grocery stores. If you haven't shopped there you really don't know what you are missing.
2009 Sep 30
Hi Willie, and welcome! How do you think Whole Foods compares to Farm Boy? It's really hard to imagine, wrt Farm Boy's strengths ( fresh produce and meat ) any other chain store being that much better. Farm Boy's weakness (or perhaps a better word is focus) is that it ONLY has produce and meat.
I think you mistake the distrust and opposition to anything from 'outside'. It's not that people don't trust it because it's American/British (except Brian Mc perhaps), it's that people have a dislike for anything big box, in a neighbourhood that already has a healthy, thriving small business, 'main street' ecosystem. It's been documented again and again, that when big retail, whether it be WalMart, Loblaws Superstore, etc moves into a neighbourhood, that the smaller retailers suffer, and the original ecosystem fades away. If this were to be proposed in a neighbourhood that was dysfunctional (in a retail sense) already, the reception would be different. However, that is not the case here.
I think the real reason Whole Foods is in the proposal, is simply because they are interested in starting a beachhead in Ottawa (which is fine.. please come here) in what is essentially the most prime retail real estate space outside of the Rideau Centre or Bayshore malls.
I think you mistake the distrust and opposition to anything from 'outside'. It's not that people don't trust it because it's American/British (except Brian Mc perhaps), it's that people have a dislike for anything big box, in a neighbourhood that already has a healthy, thriving small business, 'main street' ecosystem. It's been documented again and again, that when big retail, whether it be WalMart, Loblaws Superstore, etc moves into a neighbourhood, that the smaller retailers suffer, and the original ecosystem fades away. If this were to be proposed in a neighbourhood that was dysfunctional (in a retail sense) already, the reception would be different. However, that is not the case here.
I think the real reason Whole Foods is in the proposal, is simply because they are interested in starting a beachhead in Ottawa (which is fine.. please come here) in what is essentially the most prime retail real estate space outside of the Rideau Centre or Bayshore malls.
2009 Sep 30
The CEO isn't just a "rightwinger" he's an extreme libertarian. I choose not to support a jerk who is doing his utmost to prevent a big chunk of Americans from getting a public health option. It's my business because I care about all people, not just Canadians, this is a bad thing? Chimichimi asked me what my problem was with the CEO and I answered, don't know why you're so concerned about my shopping habits...
Pete, please point out where I said I had a problem with Whole Foods being American. Thanks.
Pete, please point out where I said I had a problem with Whole Foods being American. Thanks.
2009 Sep 30
Pete, I guess part of the point is that the whole Ottawa Centre region could really use a better grocery store. There is none in Ottawa South or East--there are two in the Glebe, but let's be honest they leave a lot to be desired. Besides the farmers' market, who would a decent grocer be competing with? I guess Nicastro, but I doubt many people do their big weekly shop there. It's more for speciality items and maybe picking up a couple of vegetables at the last minute. There is a big grocery store on Bank in Centretown, but not early the quality of Whole Foods and not very convenient to access either due to the downtown traffic and perennial construction. Then you have Billings Bridge, and after that you have to drive way down south on Bank to get to Farm Boy. That store is okay but it's small. Ottawa Centre could really use a modern, comprehensive and top quality grocery store, a need that is not met by the two existing chain grocers in the Glebe. And Whole Foods is nothing like WalMart--they actually have high quality, healthy products, not cheap junk. As for Loblaws Superstore, they are in Westboro so doesn't that disprove your point that they kill local businesses?
2009 Sep 30
Brian - Sorry, I was referring to Willie's comments about your comments, not your comments directly.
Willie - I do not dispute the inherent quality, or lack thereof of Whole Foods. The problem isn't the inherent 'goodness' of one large retailer or another, but rather the fact that if you are renting 40,000 sq. feet of space, you are going to have to sell a lot more than veggies. The problem with 'big' stores, is that there are very small incremental costs to them adding 'profit centres'. Like a rack for shoe laces, or light bulbs, or what have you. When people stop buying shoelaces and light bulbs from other generic retailers (who sell more than one thing), it takes away other smaller business's profit centres, in a way in which the small retailer cannot compete. The question from a community point of view, is would they like 50% of the stores on Bank Street in the Glebe to go out of business, to get access to a Whole Foods? Further, the replacement retail in the Glebe, would have to be market targeted retail, which is essentially another word for saying 'Brand Stores'. Bank Street in 10 years in the Glebe might be indistinguishable from the stores in thousands of 'outlet' strip malls. Am I exaggerating.. perhaps, but my scenario is plausible. Further add to the mix that this is not a development discussion on land purchased by some developer who now wants to make some investment return on their land. This is public trust land. I for one am sad that pretty much the only two ideas (from both business, and Glebites) is to make stores, or raze it into a big green park. Both ends of that spectrum are poor choices to be stuck with.
Landsdowne Live's problem is that they know they cannot propose a money losing proposition to the city. They are essentially using the condo and retail development income to justify their use of the land for sports, which in my mind is just another sports subsidy. I would rather the sports folks come hat in hand and just say "We need the city to give us $100 million" if we are to bring soccer and football to the city.
Some might think I've gone of the deep end, but I think a reasonable use of a small part of the Landsdown property would be for semi-highrise business lease space. Maybe 15 stories, maybe 20, in a business building designed to provide a beautiful (albeit urban) focus to the property to bring business and employment close to the residents of the Glebe. More people who can walk or bike to work makes for a much friendlier neighbourhood. The value of a great neighbourhood lies not just in having a Nicastros, but in being able to 'walk by it' on the way home from work, and pick up the makings for dinner. The pic I attached is a view of the Thames in London. Let's open up the architectural design competition again!
I will say I like the part of Landsdowne Live's proposal that uses the canal in cooperation with NCC land to make the canal more a part of the space.
Willie - I do not dispute the inherent quality, or lack thereof of Whole Foods. The problem isn't the inherent 'goodness' of one large retailer or another, but rather the fact that if you are renting 40,000 sq. feet of space, you are going to have to sell a lot more than veggies. The problem with 'big' stores, is that there are very small incremental costs to them adding 'profit centres'. Like a rack for shoe laces, or light bulbs, or what have you. When people stop buying shoelaces and light bulbs from other generic retailers (who sell more than one thing), it takes away other smaller business's profit centres, in a way in which the small retailer cannot compete. The question from a community point of view, is would they like 50% of the stores on Bank Street in the Glebe to go out of business, to get access to a Whole Foods? Further, the replacement retail in the Glebe, would have to be market targeted retail, which is essentially another word for saying 'Brand Stores'. Bank Street in 10 years in the Glebe might be indistinguishable from the stores in thousands of 'outlet' strip malls. Am I exaggerating.. perhaps, but my scenario is plausible. Further add to the mix that this is not a development discussion on land purchased by some developer who now wants to make some investment return on their land. This is public trust land. I for one am sad that pretty much the only two ideas (from both business, and Glebites) is to make stores, or raze it into a big green park. Both ends of that spectrum are poor choices to be stuck with.
Landsdowne Live's problem is that they know they cannot propose a money losing proposition to the city. They are essentially using the condo and retail development income to justify their use of the land for sports, which in my mind is just another sports subsidy. I would rather the sports folks come hat in hand and just say "We need the city to give us $100 million" if we are to bring soccer and football to the city.
Some might think I've gone of the deep end, but I think a reasonable use of a small part of the Landsdown property would be for semi-highrise business lease space. Maybe 15 stories, maybe 20, in a business building designed to provide a beautiful (albeit urban) focus to the property to bring business and employment close to the residents of the Glebe. More people who can walk or bike to work makes for a much friendlier neighbourhood. The value of a great neighbourhood lies not just in having a Nicastros, but in being able to 'walk by it' on the way home from work, and pick up the makings for dinner. The pic I attached is a view of the Thames in London. Let's open up the architectural design competition again!
I will say I like the part of Landsdowne Live's proposal that uses the canal in cooperation with NCC land to make the canal more a part of the space.
2009 Sep 30
I love Whole Foods!! They are much better than Farm Boy - but I still do love my local farmer's markets. That being said, I often have to shop at bigger stores to get certain items so the only ones who should be worried are Loblaws and Metro... because I'll be shopping at Whole Foods for anything I can't get at the market.
2009 Sep 30
Pete,
I understand what you are saying. I'm not very happy with our city government and think they should be doing a much better job coming up with a plan for Lansdowne. That being said, Whole Foods is nothing like the big Loblaw's stores--they don't have aisles of clothing and housewares and stuff like that. At least the ones that I have been in really focused on food, not the "Superstore" model of get everything here.
I do think the two other chain grocers in the Glebe would probably go out of business, but I don't see why one chain should be protected from competition with another, better chain just because they've been there longer. And I still just don't see more than a handful of small businesses in the Glebe would be directly competing with Whole Foods. Meanwhile you'd have people coming from all around to shop there, so maybe they would also shop on Bank street for other things.
To me, it seems like it's going to be tough to get anything else done with Lansdowne given the ineptitude of city council, and the Live proposal, while not perfect, seems pretty good as a private, commercial initiative. If the major retail tenant is Whole Foods I can honestly say that would be a major positive addition to the Ottawa Centre area, much more so than turning the whole thing into a park, which really doesn't add that much to a city that already has tons of green space.
I understand what you are saying. I'm not very happy with our city government and think they should be doing a much better job coming up with a plan for Lansdowne. That being said, Whole Foods is nothing like the big Loblaw's stores--they don't have aisles of clothing and housewares and stuff like that. At least the ones that I have been in really focused on food, not the "Superstore" model of get everything here.
I do think the two other chain grocers in the Glebe would probably go out of business, but I don't see why one chain should be protected from competition with another, better chain just because they've been there longer. And I still just don't see more than a handful of small businesses in the Glebe would be directly competing with Whole Foods. Meanwhile you'd have people coming from all around to shop there, so maybe they would also shop on Bank street for other things.
To me, it seems like it's going to be tough to get anything else done with Lansdowne given the ineptitude of city council, and the Live proposal, while not perfect, seems pretty good as a private, commercial initiative. If the major retail tenant is Whole Foods I can honestly say that would be a major positive addition to the Ottawa Centre area, much more so than turning the whole thing into a park, which really doesn't add that much to a city that already has tons of green space.
2009 Sep 30
I also love Whole Foods and I would love to see them open a central location in Ottawa. The new TNT store will take three busses for me to get there and Costco is two local (read: slow) busses to get there so it sure would be nice having a nicer (albeit a little more upscale) store close to the downtown core. Like Simply Fresh I would probably get most of my groceries at the farmers market and pick up what I can’t get at Whole Foods if we had one. As for putting stores out of business I remember the same arguments being used when Loblaws announced the opening of the Superstore in Westboro but it is still a vibrant community with locally owned businesses. (Bridgehead and The Piggy Market come to mind.) As far as I’m concerned there is room for everyone and Nicastros might offer products you can’t get at Whole Foods so they could possibly compliment each other. I guess I am just a disgruntled centretowner who is tired of seeing all these great new stores going to the suburbs-;) It’s time to bring Ottawa into the 21st century and give us some classier alternatives.
2009 Sep 30
I love Whole foods and stock up every time I go to TO. Their variety of ready to go foods is incredible and so are the fresh vegies and fruit. I did not see any stores closing on Bloor street because of them moving in. I think the nay sayers should take a trip to Bloor street and see all the stores arround Wholefoods. I am leaving tomorrow on another trip and will come back laden as usual.
Did we see an out cry when TNT decided to open in Ottawa? .I used to be a small business owner and relished having competition as it kept me on my toes and comming up with new ideas.
Competion is good for all.
Did we see an out cry when TNT decided to open in Ottawa? .I used to be a small business owner and relished having competition as it kept me on my toes and comming up with new ideas.
Competion is good for all.
2009 Sep 30
I agree with earlier comments that more competition is healthier and doesn't diminish smaller businesses (only bad ones). The only danger from a Whole Foods in Ottawa is how big a hole it can put in your wallet! I went in many times back in Boston thinking I'd "get a few things" but was seduced by the amazing displays of cheese, meat, fish, produce and prepared foods, with a hefty bill at the end. Be forewarned: if you love to shop for food, this is an epicurean's paradise.
2009 Oct 2
I have shopped at Whole Foods in Toronto semi-regularly when my now wife lived there and we were dating for a few years. I would love one in Ottawa.... but not at Lansdowne. Overall, I really do like what they are proposing for Lansdowne Live but I really would prefer Whole Foods not go in there and a more permanent, indoor home be developed for the farmers market. I don't think its realistic to assume we can have something comparable to the St. Lawrence market in Toronto but a scaled down version is feasible... perhaps one that could spill into the outdoors when the harvest comes in and on weekends.
My 2 cents!
Cheers
My 2 cents!
Cheers
2009 Dec 15
ottawa desperately needs a decent urban grocery / natural food store. we do not have one. the natural foods retail in this city is about 10 years behind the times.
i don't know that it is incompatible with a farmers market - couldn't there be good synergy with the market? the same people who shop at a whole foods would go for farmers markets. i would be much more likely to travel up to that location to shop a the farmers market if there were a whole foods.
BRING ON THE WHOLE FOODS!!!
i don't know that it is incompatible with a farmers market - couldn't there be good synergy with the market? the same people who shop at a whole foods would go for farmers markets. i would be much more likely to travel up to that location to shop a the farmers market if there were a whole foods.
BRING ON THE WHOLE FOODS!!!
2009 Dec 15
I was just in NYC and visited Whole Foods on a few occasions while there to pick up some food to go. The meat and seafood counters were amazing - they had dry aged beef! All meat products were hormone & antibiotic free, at the very least. I forget if the seafood was sustainable or not. It was nice to see this as the standard.
2009 Dec 16
I really hope Whole Foods comes here too, but locates their store somewhere else. Why can't Whole Foods just buy land off the open market like everyone else? Maybe we should have a Whole Foods in Gatineau Park, or maybe in Vancouver they should put one in Stanley Park? With apologies to Joni.. 'They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot and Whole Foods'
Everyone seems to think this is an all or nothing proposal. If Whole Foods wants to come to Ottawa, they will come regardless of the Landsdowne Live plan. It's the Landsdowne Live promoters that want you to think it's all or nothing.
Everyone seems to think this is an all or nothing proposal. If Whole Foods wants to come to Ottawa, they will come regardless of the Landsdowne Live plan. It's the Landsdowne Live promoters that want you to think it's all or nothing.
2009 Dec 16
zymurgist The store you are thinking of is Big Buds but it closed a few years ago. Actually the intersection your are thinking of is quite a far way up Bank closer to Somerset and quite a hike from Lansdowne Park.
As far as health food stores are concerned the only one in the Glebe I can think of off hand is Kardish. As far as groceries go there is also a Nicastros and a Metro also nearby. I still think there is nothing wrong with a little competition as I still remember the debate that ensued when the Westboro superstore opened a few years ago. It didn't seem to take business away from the smaller stores and quite the contrary the neighbourhood continues to flourish. The sore point for me is the way the city sole sourced Lansdowne Live and didn't pursue public consultation.
As far as health food stores are concerned the only one in the Glebe I can think of off hand is Kardish. As far as groceries go there is also a Nicastros and a Metro also nearby. I still think there is nothing wrong with a little competition as I still remember the debate that ensued when the Westboro superstore opened a few years ago. It didn't seem to take business away from the smaller stores and quite the contrary the neighbourhood continues to flourish. The sore point for me is the way the city sole sourced Lansdowne Live and didn't pursue public consultation.
2009 Dec 16
Nothing at all wrong with competition - but I don't want the City handing out a prime piece of real estate on a silver platter to a selected vendor. This is no longer "competition" but "political favoritism".
From what I have seen here the City is assuming an awful lot of liability and the companies who stand to profit are not. It stinks of the whole problem we've seen going around lately - bank bailouts, Nortel handing out big bonuses while cutting employees with no severance.
From what I have seen here the City is assuming an awful lot of liability and the companies who stand to profit are not. It stinks of the whole problem we've seen going around lately - bank bailouts, Nortel handing out big bonuses while cutting employees with no severance.
spud guy
www.wholefoodsmarket.com
This new store speciaizes in natural and organic foods.
It would make the Ottawa Farmers' Market at Lansdowne not viable along with other food stores along Bank in the Glebe.
Other info www.slate.com/id/2138176/
www.slate.com
Also, the plan calls for 8-10 restaurants in the Aberdeen Pavilian with craft boutiques. The Horticulture building facade will be relocated and a new building will be constructed behind it suppossed;y for the Farmers' Market, also to contain craft boutiques.
There goes the Farmers' Market food court, crafters, and eventually the produce vendors...squeezed out.
Contact your councillor if you want the Ottawa Farmers' Market to remain in the Glebe.