Buying an O.J. Press after reading this [General]
2009 May 21
Good follow up for this article, is that although it's on a site called 'HealthZone.ca', it is just the lifestyle-health section of the Toronoto Star, and is thus written by a reporter, not a scientist, which is flogging a book, also not written by a scientist. I'd be interested to see what our CFIA folk have to say about the 'flavour packs' claims. If the only ingredient on the box is 'juice not from concentrate', I'm not sure how they can add other stuff in without listing it on the ingredients. As far as million gallon tanks... I'm not surprised... we drink a LOT of orange juice.
2009 May 21
Good Points, did either of you even read the article?
The "non-scientist" has a research fellowship from the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, she has a Phd in what can be accurately called Food Sciences based on her thesis work according to my friend who has a straight environmental policy masters from the same University aka Yale, perhaps you've heard of it?
Beyond that, she's contributed articles to peer reviewed academic research journals, by what stretch of sleight of hand sophistry do we not term this person a scientist?
In the article it clearly says she has,"a doctorate in environmental studies from Yale University and a law degree from the University of Toronto. She is a fellow with the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, based in Minneapolis."
From a separate article by her,
"Flavor packs aren’t listed as an ingredient on the label because technically they are derived from orange essence and oil. Yet those in the industry will tell you that the flavor packs, whether made for reconstituted or pasteurized orange juice, resemble nothing found in nature. The packs added to juice earmarked for the North American market tend to contain high amounts of ethyl butyrate, a chemical in the fragrance of fresh squeezed orange juice that, juice companies have discovered, Americans favor. Mexicans and Brazilians have a different palate. Flavor packs fabricated for juice geared to these markets therefore highlight different chemicals, the decanals say, or terpene compounds such as valencine.
The formulas vary to give a brand’s trademark taste. If you’re discerning you may have noticed Minute Maid has a candy like orange flavor. That’s largely due to the flavor pack Coca-Cola has chosen for it. Some companies have even been known to request a flavor pack that mimics the taste of a popular competitor, creating a “hall of mirrors” of flavor packs. Despite the multiple interpretations of a freshly squeezed orange on the market, most flavor packs have a shared source of inspiration: a Florida Valencia orange in spring."
The "non-scientist" has a research fellowship from the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, she has a Phd in what can be accurately called Food Sciences based on her thesis work according to my friend who has a straight environmental policy masters from the same University aka Yale, perhaps you've heard of it?
Beyond that, she's contributed articles to peer reviewed academic research journals, by what stretch of sleight of hand sophistry do we not term this person a scientist?
In the article it clearly says she has,"a doctorate in environmental studies from Yale University and a law degree from the University of Toronto. She is a fellow with the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, based in Minneapolis."
From a separate article by her,
"Flavor packs aren’t listed as an ingredient on the label because technically they are derived from orange essence and oil. Yet those in the industry will tell you that the flavor packs, whether made for reconstituted or pasteurized orange juice, resemble nothing found in nature. The packs added to juice earmarked for the North American market tend to contain high amounts of ethyl butyrate, a chemical in the fragrance of fresh squeezed orange juice that, juice companies have discovered, Americans favor. Mexicans and Brazilians have a different palate. Flavor packs fabricated for juice geared to these markets therefore highlight different chemicals, the decanals say, or terpene compounds such as valencine.
The formulas vary to give a brand’s trademark taste. If you’re discerning you may have noticed Minute Maid has a candy like orange flavor. That’s largely due to the flavor pack Coca-Cola has chosen for it. Some companies have even been known to request a flavor pack that mimics the taste of a popular competitor, creating a “hall of mirrors” of flavor packs. Despite the multiple interpretations of a freshly squeezed orange on the market, most flavor packs have a shared source of inspiration: a Florida Valencia orange in spring."
2009 May 21
How a doctorate in environmental studies (not environmental science) and a law degree made her a scientist is not clear to me at all. I'm with Pete. She's not a scientist. She works with scientists. I work with doctors. I am not a doctor (and watching House has made me quite sure of this).
I'm with Pete on this one.
I also think that this problem extends beyond orange juice and into other processed foods. But that'll be filed under "sustainability", among other things.
I'm with Pete on this one.
I also think that this problem extends beyond orange juice and into other processed foods. But that'll be filed under "sustainability", among other things.
2009 May 21
I mean I could just give you the brass tacks definition of 'scientist' which means you have a demonstrated expert capacity in any of the natural or physical sciences. But then you might feel you still have wiggle room.
First, in response to your rather fuzzy analogous example; when you're a Farmer that doesn't necessarily make you an Agronomist, but when you're an Agronomist you're more than welcome to comment on the actions of Farmers.
Now, answering directly to your example; nope you wouldn't be a doctor it's nice to see your post secondary education taught you that. However, if your 'work' extended to something more than say answering the phone and sitting at a desk but went so far as to sharing a lab and research work, or doing your own studies on the treatment of a certain sickness etc etc.
Guess what, you would in fact be a medical researcher and guess what that qualifies you to be called? "a scientist."
First, in response to your rather fuzzy analogous example; when you're a Farmer that doesn't necessarily make you an Agronomist, but when you're an Agronomist you're more than welcome to comment on the actions of Farmers.
Now, answering directly to your example; nope you wouldn't be a doctor it's nice to see your post secondary education taught you that. However, if your 'work' extended to something more than say answering the phone and sitting at a desk but went so far as to sharing a lab and research work, or doing your own studies on the treatment of a certain sickness etc etc.
Guess what, you would in fact be a medical researcher and guess what that qualifies you to be called? "a scientist."
2009 May 21
OT
Except that while environmental studies does have roots in the natural sciences, it is not the same as environmental sciences, at least in terms of the curricula.
The thing is, she works for Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy. While I imagine that she does cite a lot of scientific reseearch and is probably well versed in food science, she herself is not practicing the sciences. The Institute for Agri and Trade Policy is focussed in policy, and in being the messengers. Obviously, she is very bright and does her job quite well, if she has a fellowship and a book.
But I still don't get the impression that she practices science as a researcher.
Except that while environmental studies does have roots in the natural sciences, it is not the same as environmental sciences, at least in terms of the curricula.
The thing is, she works for Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy. While I imagine that she does cite a lot of scientific reseearch and is probably well versed in food science, she herself is not practicing the sciences. The Institute for Agri and Trade Policy is focussed in policy, and in being the messengers. Obviously, she is very bright and does her job quite well, if she has a fellowship and a book.
But I still don't get the impression that she practices science as a researcher.
2009 May 21
She has a research fellowship, by definition this means she is conducting academic research; ergo the title Scientist is entirely accurate.
Are you like one of those people that will accept an associate lecturer in any faculty as a 'professor' but won't countenance social research studies constituting what is called a 'science.'
You can get into Med school with out the benefit of a Bsc are they somehow less a Doctor when they graduate?
I guess I should tell my uncle his title as a research scientist with MNR should be stripped from him because he doesn't have chemistry flasks strewn around and a Tesla coil crackling by the window.
Are you like one of those people that will accept an associate lecturer in any faculty as a 'professor' but won't countenance social research studies constituting what is called a 'science.'
You can get into Med school with out the benefit of a Bsc are they somehow less a Doctor when they graduate?
I guess I should tell my uncle his title as a research scientist with MNR should be stripped from him because he doesn't have chemistry flasks strewn around and a Tesla coil crackling by the window.
2009 May 21
Not a scientist. Researcher, yes. But that is not a scientist. If I research life in india, for a book, I am not a scientist.
But, whatever. GT is ALWAYS right. And because he is always right, I don't see any reason for this discussion to continue.
Don't drink the Orange(kool aid) juice.
But, whatever. GT is ALWAYS right. And because he is always right, I don't see any reason for this discussion to continue.
Don't drink the Orange(kool aid) juice.
2009 May 21
wow, you could go in circles on this semantic "what is science and what is a scientist" debate. In any case, i'm not certain i follow the relevance in the appeal to scientific authority in this particular context, which seems to me to be more of a whistle blowing exercise.
and, to respond to my own question(s), assuming the individual deploys a rigorous or systematic methodology in the pursuit of knowledge and does so in a manner that can be replicated or disproved (or at least reviewed) ... why not call it science? I dunno, this is just Ottawa Foodies, summer's arrived.
Everything noted: oranges > juice.
and, to respond to my own question(s), assuming the individual deploys a rigorous or systematic methodology in the pursuit of knowledge and does so in a manner that can be replicated or disproved (or at least reviewed) ... why not call it science? I dunno, this is just Ottawa Foodies, summer's arrived.
Everything noted: oranges > juice.
2009 May 21
Actually GT, there is no mention of 'research' in the fellowship program of IATP at all. To quote their own documentation "The Food & Society Policy Fellows Program is a project that provides fellowships to professionals in food and agriculture, enabling them to use mass media channels to inform and shape the public agenda in alignment with the goals of creating sustainable food systems that promote good health, vibrant communities, and environmental stewardship. Fellows come from many disciplines - chefs, farmers, nutritionists, activists, public health professionals, fishers, policy experts and academics."
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There is nothing in that description that makes me think being a fellow needs to involve research, or requires any science. As for the Med school reference, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will), but if the applicant does not have the basic science education background, they have to usually pass some form of refresher courses (in umm.. science) to stay in the program.
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On the other hand, if you said it, or a friend of yours said it, it must be true...
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The article is of course interesting, but your insistence on knowing everything, and dogged refusal to be wrong in any aspect is tiring. I would suggest you come out for the next 'foodie night' so we can get to know the face behind the words. In fact, your presence would probably increase the attendance greatly ( and I mean no joke or disrespect by that).
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There is nothing in that description that makes me think being a fellow needs to involve research, or requires any science. As for the Med school reference, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will), but if the applicant does not have the basic science education background, they have to usually pass some form of refresher courses (in umm.. science) to stay in the program.
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On the other hand, if you said it, or a friend of yours said it, it must be true...
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The article is of course interesting, but your insistence on knowing everything, and dogged refusal to be wrong in any aspect is tiring. I would suggest you come out for the next 'foodie night' so we can get to know the face behind the words. In fact, your presence would probably increase the attendance greatly ( and I mean no joke or disrespect by that).
2009 May 22
a) Her title is "research fellow" not 'fellow'
b) Re: Med School since you're pre-defining what I said and then proving it wrong no you're off in lah lah land. I said you don't need a Bsc, I didn't say there weren't pre-requisite courses. Again though, you're a medical researcher and a scientist and possibly even have a doctorate in that example but you don't have an Md. That was an example of me saying "and your point is?"
Hey, if you'd like a Dentist without a Bsc undergrad to compliment a rectal exam from Nicole when she's finished --I suggest you go see Dr. Charles Anthony Utovac here in sunny downtown Ottawa. Aside from being a dentist he has a great late night radio show on 93.1 CKCU. From what I recall he has an Economics undergrad.
c) It isn't about being right it's about understanding the basic functioning of the human language. In the same way that certain people holding onto calling someone a "terrorist" because they're engaging in what is (based on the charges laid and all) direct non-violent action with a side dose of civil disobedience is total b.s; you're doing a disservice to people involved in somehow debasing their work by saying they aren't a scientist. Again, it would seem to me solely on the basis that they don't have a working tesla coil and a row of beakers with bubbling liquids in it.
Being a Scientist is about having a position based on thorough research which is defensible. That's why she got a doctorate I'd presume since they have to be defended before a panel.
Do you think someone with a quantum physics based degree is necessarily qualified to conduct open heart surgery? No, but I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with calling them a Scientist.
re: foie gras & o.j dude you can blend it up and take it in an enema if you'd like. Your dietary habits are not my concern I don't stay awake at night fearing for the eternal souls of people that eat meat or some such nonsense.
b) Re: Med School since you're pre-defining what I said and then proving it wrong no you're off in lah lah land. I said you don't need a Bsc, I didn't say there weren't pre-requisite courses. Again though, you're a medical researcher and a scientist and possibly even have a doctorate in that example but you don't have an Md. That was an example of me saying "and your point is?"
Hey, if you'd like a Dentist without a Bsc undergrad to compliment a rectal exam from Nicole when she's finished --I suggest you go see Dr. Charles Anthony Utovac here in sunny downtown Ottawa. Aside from being a dentist he has a great late night radio show on 93.1 CKCU. From what I recall he has an Economics undergrad.
c) It isn't about being right it's about understanding the basic functioning of the human language. In the same way that certain people holding onto calling someone a "terrorist" because they're engaging in what is (based on the charges laid and all) direct non-violent action with a side dose of civil disobedience is total b.s; you're doing a disservice to people involved in somehow debasing their work by saying they aren't a scientist. Again, it would seem to me solely on the basis that they don't have a working tesla coil and a row of beakers with bubbling liquids in it.
Being a Scientist is about having a position based on thorough research which is defensible. That's why she got a doctorate I'd presume since they have to be defended before a panel.
Do you think someone with a quantum physics based degree is necessarily qualified to conduct open heart surgery? No, but I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with calling them a Scientist.
re: foie gras & o.j dude you can blend it up and take it in an enema if you'd like. Your dietary habits are not my concern I don't stay awake at night fearing for the eternal souls of people that eat meat or some such nonsense.
2009 May 22
GT-RIP - now that's just unnecessary, unless of course you'd like to sniff the resulting farts? I'm sure you would. Join in on the ironic, self-deprecating humour every once in a while.
On a more serious, and relevant, note: carton OJ tastes way too sweet for me. I grew up drinking real, fresh squeezed OJ & grapefruit juice from the same types of oranges the big companies use and always wondered how they achieved such varied flavour profiles. The closest I ever got to something that tasted like Tropicana was when I used some overly ripe - verging on rotten - oranges.
On a more serious, and relevant, note: carton OJ tastes way too sweet for me. I grew up drinking real, fresh squeezed OJ & grapefruit juice from the same types of oranges the big companies use and always wondered how they achieved such varied flavour profiles. The closest I ever got to something that tasted like Tropicana was when I used some overly ripe - verging on rotten - oranges.
2009 May 22
Chim: I have no problem with irony I just didn't get the South Park reference from the outset nor do I get the implied connection intended but whatevs
I never liked Tropicana in particular, but this practice is apparently endemic to the industry with small variants so I am just going to assume it applies directly to the PC Organics etc. I have probably drank my bodyweight annually in the blue containers of Valencia you see in grocery stores this news has me totally revolted.
I never liked Tropicana in particular, but this practice is apparently endemic to the industry with small variants so I am just going to assume it applies directly to the PC Organics etc. I have probably drank my bodyweight annually in the blue containers of Valencia you see in grocery stores this news has me totally revolted.
2009 May 22
I feel like I'm kicking a dead horse here, but I will try again. I will admit that I am using the internet to gain all of my knowledge of Ms. Hamilton, mostly using the websites of, and affiliated with (and there are many, as this green astroturf group has VERY GOOD P.R. in the web world ) the IATP. In her profile, yes, you are right, she is declared a "Lawyer, Author and Research Fellow". However, if one follows the nomenclature of the accreditations for the other 71 IATP Fellows that have ever existed, these accreditations do not seem to be titles that have been bestowed by the IATP, but rather a simple list of the background of the person. She is the only one (isn't she special?) that lists herself as a 'Research Fellow'. Other accreditations that other fellows use include: Cowboy, Farmer, Social Entrepreneur, Eco-Activist, Healthy Eating and Active Living Program Manager, Executive Director California Adolescent Nutrition and Fitness as well as some doctors, academics (i.e. professors), and corporate heads (very few of these). Technically, since they are all Fellows, they are all researching one thing or another for the publications they must write that are obviously the goal of the Fellowship. One may call what they do researching, but I think it's not too fine a line to say they are not really a researcher if it is not their actual vocation. As for being a scientist. Being a researcher does not even make one a scientist. What makes one a scientist is the rigorous application of scientific method to one's area of expertise. Although it is possible she is an author who religiously uses scientific method to execute her fact checking, I would feel credulous to make such an assumption.
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I find your rude language to be disingenuous, and entirely unneeded in this thread, and I believe a gentleman would apologize to Nicole for such comments (although I know not to whom you are referring, and was just shocked by the bodily references).
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The Alissa Hamilton book certainly sounds interesting, but from the articles, and the short summary of her 2006 thesis paper that I dug up (which co-incidentally seems to be the same material that is in her 2009 book) it hardly seems to be a scientific critique of Orange Juice quality. She even admits as much that her intended goal is to advance the cause of 'Right To Know' on food issues, and not bash the OJ industry. If one were to extend the logic further, the scant evidence I have would imply that she was given the Fellowship because of her 2006 thesis, and that the Fellowship is more about 'fine tuning' the message of the thesis to fit the IATP stated agenda, rather than performing any sort of new or unique research.
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I'm used to the bar for academic peer reviewed publishing excellence in the science field to be the publication 'Nature', and whether she is, or claims to be a researcher, or a scientist, she certainly falls well short of that particular bar. Does that make the book bad, or wrong.. absolutely not! But it does mean that my original caution of taking a grain of salt with it is certainly warranted.
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GT, did you say you were interested in attending the next Foodie night?
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I find your rude language to be disingenuous, and entirely unneeded in this thread, and I believe a gentleman would apologize to Nicole for such comments (although I know not to whom you are referring, and was just shocked by the bodily references).
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The Alissa Hamilton book certainly sounds interesting, but from the articles, and the short summary of her 2006 thesis paper that I dug up (which co-incidentally seems to be the same material that is in her 2009 book) it hardly seems to be a scientific critique of Orange Juice quality. She even admits as much that her intended goal is to advance the cause of 'Right To Know' on food issues, and not bash the OJ industry. If one were to extend the logic further, the scant evidence I have would imply that she was given the Fellowship because of her 2006 thesis, and that the Fellowship is more about 'fine tuning' the message of the thesis to fit the IATP stated agenda, rather than performing any sort of new or unique research.
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I'm used to the bar for academic peer reviewed publishing excellence in the science field to be the publication 'Nature', and whether she is, or claims to be a researcher, or a scientist, she certainly falls well short of that particular bar. Does that make the book bad, or wrong.. absolutely not! But it does mean that my original caution of taking a grain of salt with it is certainly warranted.
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GT, did you say you were interested in attending the next Foodie night?
2009 May 22
They listed something called Ecology of Food and Nutrition which I am going to just leap of faith assume has fully credentialed peers reviewing it on her claim because I'm not interested in researching it.
I think you're a Scientist the moment you research and defend a doctorate at Yale in something other than languages, religion or philosophy if I have to declare a position.
Nicole is my friend who is in U of O med school if I am guilty of anything it's not giving sufficient information when typing but if you'll forgive me I was on the phone and reading a way more interesting email on another screen. She'd probably volunteer to give an exam and give and extra twist of the digit if you thought she'd been so easily offended.
That the girl's thesis paper matured into a book isn't that unsurprising you pimp what you know and play it as far as it will go right?
I'm not all that interested in a next foodie night if you must know and without sounding like I'm 'whinging' I barely have time to wipe after performing a rectally related activity right now; I'm lucky if I go out to dinner once or twice in a month so that's a friends and family time, typing things out fast on the internerd in between firestorms is easily done having a few hours for the great glebe garage sale was a performance of its own.
I think you're a Scientist the moment you research and defend a doctorate at Yale in something other than languages, religion or philosophy if I have to declare a position.
Nicole is my friend who is in U of O med school if I am guilty of anything it's not giving sufficient information when typing but if you'll forgive me I was on the phone and reading a way more interesting email on another screen. She'd probably volunteer to give an exam and give and extra twist of the digit if you thought she'd been so easily offended.
That the girl's thesis paper matured into a book isn't that unsurprising you pimp what you know and play it as far as it will go right?
I'm not all that interested in a next foodie night if you must know and without sounding like I'm 'whinging' I barely have time to wipe after performing a rectally related activity right now; I'm lucky if I go out to dinner once or twice in a month so that's a friends and family time, typing things out fast on the internerd in between firestorms is easily done having a few hours for the great glebe garage sale was a performance of its own.
2009 May 23
c) It isn't about being right it's about understanding the basic functioning of the human language. In the same way that certain people holding onto calling someone a "terrorist" because they're engaging in what is (based on the charges laid and all) direct non-violent action with a side dose of civil disobedience is total b.s; you're doing a disservice to people involved in somehow debasing their work by saying they aren't a scientist. Again, it would seem to me solely on the basis that they don't have a working tesla coil and a row of beakers with bubbling liquids in it.
Sigh.
"A 2003 study by Jeffrey Record for the US Army quoted a source (Schmid and Jongman 1988) that counted 109 definitions of terrorism that covered a total of 22 different definitional elements."
Apparently GT knows each and everyone one of these. As he "understands the basic functioning of human language". (!?!)
"The term "terrorism" comes from Latin terrere, "to frighten." "
Hhhmm..Sure seems to me the ADL scared Beckta, given his quote about "sleepless nights".
One very simple definition of terrorism:
"Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion"
As stated in the article " you wouldn't believe how fast rumors of food poisoning can spread". That is a threat, made to intimidate and coerce Mr Beckta into doing what they ask. Also, the harassing phone calls, banging on windows...And the threat to do this to each and every restaurant selling FG.
NOW. Regardless of all the above statements, I am totally free to call these people anything I want. Just as you can call me "intellectually lazy" and a "naif", without having to prove it. I can call them anything I want, because it is just MY OPINION.
Now.Will you let it go already??
Sigh.
"A 2003 study by Jeffrey Record for the US Army quoted a source (Schmid and Jongman 1988) that counted 109 definitions of terrorism that covered a total of 22 different definitional elements."
Apparently GT knows each and everyone one of these. As he "understands the basic functioning of human language". (!?!)
"The term "terrorism" comes from Latin terrere, "to frighten." "
Hhhmm..Sure seems to me the ADL scared Beckta, given his quote about "sleepless nights".
One very simple definition of terrorism:
"Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion"
As stated in the article " you wouldn't believe how fast rumors of food poisoning can spread". That is a threat, made to intimidate and coerce Mr Beckta into doing what they ask. Also, the harassing phone calls, banging on windows...And the threat to do this to each and every restaurant selling FG.
NOW. Regardless of all the above statements, I am totally free to call these people anything I want. Just as you can call me "intellectually lazy" and a "naif", without having to prove it. I can call them anything I want, because it is just MY OPINION.
Now.Will you let it go already??
2009 May 23
Pete she's published others why don't you hop on Lexis Nexis or a Journal Search and pare through them line by line while you're at it. Like I said if you can take a position and hold it in either of the natural or physical sciences before a board of peers I consider you a scientist. She got a doctorate AT Yale on the issue in question and unless you want to identify and contact who she defended against, until then I consider it safe to assume at least one of them will have an expert level understanding of all issues her doctorate related to. My friend getting a Masters at the same school had to for a management slanted enviro masters so you think she wouldn't have to?
Jane, "word" and "term" are not even remotely synonymous.
I was really specific in the other post when I said that you cannot accurately define 'terrorism.' I am fairly certain I recall spelling out why while inviting you to nail some honey to the bee and define 'hypoallergenic' while you were at it.
Further, what the reporter you quoted wrote there is what normal objective observers call, an "allegation."
I didn't have to prove those assignations, you earn them; you cement this opinion, message by message. Did you have a problem understanding the definition of hyperbole I directed you to previously?
Jane, "word" and "term" are not even remotely synonymous.
I was really specific in the other post when I said that you cannot accurately define 'terrorism.' I am fairly certain I recall spelling out why while inviting you to nail some honey to the bee and define 'hypoallergenic' while you were at it.
Further, what the reporter you quoted wrote there is what normal objective observers call, an "allegation."
I didn't have to prove those assignations, you earn them; you cement this opinion, message by message. Did you have a problem understanding the definition of hyperbole I directed you to previously?
2009 May 23
Just when I thought terrorism had NO link whatsoever to OJ, read the 3rd paragraph:
www.atlantic-times.com
Clearly we've had it wrong all along - it's the OJ that made them do it. Maybe the ADL protesters were strung out on OJ that day?
www.atlantic-times.com
Clearly we've had it wrong all along - it's the OJ that made them do it. Maybe the ADL protesters were strung out on OJ that day?
2009 May 23
Animal slaughter for food & religious purposes doesn't meet the legal definition of cruelty because it has a catch all of "legitimate purpose" but for vegans who oppose the consumption of animals that's not much of a catch all and if by cruel we're going to go with
www.merriam-webster.com
that is going to meet ANY infraction of slaughter practices which we know go on quite often but for someone who oppose the consumption of animal products on a moral basis anything leading to a termination of life through an unnatural cause is going to meet the definition of cruel.
For some people that's a bit overkill but it's a lot closer to meeting everyone's definition than defining people engaging in civil disobedience (the ONLY proven action that isn't relying on someone's hearsay) as terrorists.
www.merriam-webster.com
that is going to meet ANY infraction of slaughter practices which we know go on quite often but for someone who oppose the consumption of animal products on a moral basis anything leading to a termination of life through an unnatural cause is going to meet the definition of cruel.
For some people that's a bit overkill but it's a lot closer to meeting everyone's definition than defining people engaging in civil disobedience (the ONLY proven action that isn't relying on someone's hearsay) as terrorists.
2009 May 23
from Chimi's article, because I think this is priceless, and on-topic:
"The senior officials had recognized that terrorism had come to Germany. It came in the shape of three “Flirt” brand orange juice bottles, two small yellow-green alarm clocks, and two big propane gas containers. Everything neatly packed into two black suitcases."
oranges > juice > Flirt brand juice.
"The senior officials had recognized that terrorism had come to Germany. It came in the shape of three “Flirt” brand orange juice bottles, two small yellow-green alarm clocks, and two big propane gas containers. Everything neatly packed into two black suitcases."
oranges > juice > Flirt brand juice.
2009 May 23
Why is the sky blue karey ;-) Sorry, but I've got some more gruel for occupants of this forum.
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I don't have access to Lexis-Nexis myself, I'd have to impose on a friend to get this info, and frankly I'm not that interested to ask the favour. I did Google the couple people who I know who ARE scientists, and are well published and had no problems finding a list of published material, unlike the sparse entries I found for Ms. Hamilton. Of course, I am talking about the physical sciences, and not the social, or political sciences, where the usage of the term scientist is often loosened. I do stick to my definition of scientist as one who practices the scientific method, which requires not only hypothesis, but also repeatable experimentation that proves (or disproves) the hypotheses. In Ms. Hamilton's work, I see hypothesis, and research, but I see no form of experimentation. Of course when you're basically doing historical social theses, it is pretty difficult to provide experiments to test your hypotheses. Far be it for me to judge the scientific worthiness of thesis topics, but it seems that although belonging to an Environmental Science department, Ms. Hamilton's thesis seems more about ethics, and social policy, than it does about.. well... chemicals and plants and animals. Does that make it unscientific? No. Does it make me retract my comment that I have not seen any evidence that would make me classify her a scientist.. not at all.
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One last little interesting piece of information from the Environmental Sciences faculty at Yale. Ms. Hamilton was one of several recipients of the 2003 Center for Field Ecology Pilot grants (grants.. YAY), and the thesis title for which she was awarded the grant was "Fabricated Fresh: What Industry and the FDA Failed To Tell You About Processed Orange Juice" Now, not that there's anything wrong with that topic, but it was the about the only listed grant given from within the Environmental Science department that was rooted in what I would consider social or political science, and not physical science. Other examples of grant thesis topics include the normal range of what you would expect such as:
- The Ecology of East African Trypanosomes
- Comparison of Extinct and Extant Grassland Ecosystems With Regard to the Role of Carnivores
- A paleoecological investigation of the emergence and evolution of hominins in the Tugen Hills, Kenya
- Ecological stoichiometry and predation: Examining life-history trade-offs in Daphnia
- Anadromy, landlocking, and the evolution of feeding morphology and prey selectivity in the alewife
- Urbanization and the impact of emerging disease on amphibians
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It may just be me, but all of those topics look like what I would expect to see in an environmental studies program, but the topic "Fabricated Fresh: What Industry and the FDA Failed To Tell You About Processed Orange Juice" looks more like a headline on an entertainment news show, than the title of a research paper. Of course, this is an entirely unfair characterization of a paper, based entirely upon the title.
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I feel like she is not trying to merely inform me of some sort of misinformation, or misguidance perpetrated by the food industry, but rather that she, and the people funding her are trying to convince me I should be surprised, nay, outraged at such behaviour. I would much prefer, if she (and you) just stuck to the facts, and allowed me to think for myself whether or not I need to be outraged. I am not particularly surprised at the accusations leveled at the Agri-Orange industry, but neither do I find them very compelling for outrage. Similar to the milk industry, they take a raw product, they rip it apart (for various reasons), and reassemble it in a form they wish to sell. From the best information I can find, there is nothing in a 'Flavour Pack', that was not originally in the orange, if not always in the same proportions. In fact, this process is not that dissimilar from how you take apart people's comments, and reparse them to try to prove your points.. perhaps you are as evil as the Orange Juice industry... hmmm.
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I don't have access to Lexis-Nexis myself, I'd have to impose on a friend to get this info, and frankly I'm not that interested to ask the favour. I did Google the couple people who I know who ARE scientists, and are well published and had no problems finding a list of published material, unlike the sparse entries I found for Ms. Hamilton. Of course, I am talking about the physical sciences, and not the social, or political sciences, where the usage of the term scientist is often loosened. I do stick to my definition of scientist as one who practices the scientific method, which requires not only hypothesis, but also repeatable experimentation that proves (or disproves) the hypotheses. In Ms. Hamilton's work, I see hypothesis, and research, but I see no form of experimentation. Of course when you're basically doing historical social theses, it is pretty difficult to provide experiments to test your hypotheses. Far be it for me to judge the scientific worthiness of thesis topics, but it seems that although belonging to an Environmental Science department, Ms. Hamilton's thesis seems more about ethics, and social policy, than it does about.. well... chemicals and plants and animals. Does that make it unscientific? No. Does it make me retract my comment that I have not seen any evidence that would make me classify her a scientist.. not at all.
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One last little interesting piece of information from the Environmental Sciences faculty at Yale. Ms. Hamilton was one of several recipients of the 2003 Center for Field Ecology Pilot grants (grants.. YAY), and the thesis title for which she was awarded the grant was "Fabricated Fresh: What Industry and the FDA Failed To Tell You About Processed Orange Juice" Now, not that there's anything wrong with that topic, but it was the about the only listed grant given from within the Environmental Science department that was rooted in what I would consider social or political science, and not physical science. Other examples of grant thesis topics include the normal range of what you would expect such as:
- The Ecology of East African Trypanosomes
- Comparison of Extinct and Extant Grassland Ecosystems With Regard to the Role of Carnivores
- A paleoecological investigation of the emergence and evolution of hominins in the Tugen Hills, Kenya
- Ecological stoichiometry and predation: Examining life-history trade-offs in Daphnia
- Anadromy, landlocking, and the evolution of feeding morphology and prey selectivity in the alewife
- Urbanization and the impact of emerging disease on amphibians
.
It may just be me, but all of those topics look like what I would expect to see in an environmental studies program, but the topic "Fabricated Fresh: What Industry and the FDA Failed To Tell You About Processed Orange Juice" looks more like a headline on an entertainment news show, than the title of a research paper. Of course, this is an entirely unfair characterization of a paper, based entirely upon the title.
.
I feel like she is not trying to merely inform me of some sort of misinformation, or misguidance perpetrated by the food industry, but rather that she, and the people funding her are trying to convince me I should be surprised, nay, outraged at such behaviour. I would much prefer, if she (and you) just stuck to the facts, and allowed me to think for myself whether or not I need to be outraged. I am not particularly surprised at the accusations leveled at the Agri-Orange industry, but neither do I find them very compelling for outrage. Similar to the milk industry, they take a raw product, they rip it apart (for various reasons), and reassemble it in a form they wish to sell. From the best information I can find, there is nothing in a 'Flavour Pack', that was not originally in the orange, if not always in the same proportions. In fact, this process is not that dissimilar from how you take apart people's comments, and reparse them to try to prove your points.. perhaps you are as evil as the Orange Juice industry... hmmm.
Golden Turtle(r.i.p)
This is the most disgusting food related piece of news I've read in awhile. For any of those that cry at the mere sight of a link without any accompanying info
"
Q: What would consumers be surprised to discover about orange juice?
A: The leading producers of "not from concentrate" (a.k.a. pasteurized) orange juice keep their juice in million-gallon aseptic storage tanks to ensure a year-round supply. Juice stored this way has to be stripped of oxygen, a process known as de-aeration, so it doesn't oxidize in the tanks. When the juice is stripped of oxygen, it is also stripped of flavour-providing chemicals ... If you were to try the juice coming out of the tanks, it would taste like sugar water.
Juice companies therefore hire flavour and fragrance companies, the same ones that make popular perfumes and colognes, to fabricate flavour packs to add back to their product to make it taste like orange juice.
Q: What are flavour packs?
A: Flavour packs are derived from the orange essence and oils that are lost from orange juice during processing. Flavour houses break down these essence and oils into their constituent chemicals and then reassemble the chemicals into formulations that resemble nothing found in nature. Most of the juice sold in North America contains flavour packs that have especially high concentrations of ethyl butyrate, a chemical found in orange essence that the industry has discovered Americans like and associate with the flavour of a freshly squeezed orange. "