Mozzarella Rage [Food/Vendor]
2008 Jul 22
Similarly the price of Parmigiano Reggiano is also ridiculous... I also know there is some sort of importation limits on true parm in Canada, and if I recall correctly as 2007 wore on it became harder and harder to find real parm... as we closed in on the yearly limit.
I plan to make sure I have some "in stock" as we get into September, I don't want to be in the situation where I have to pay even more for it... or worse yet run out entirely.
I plan to make sure I have some "in stock" as we get into September, I don't want to be in the situation where I have to pay even more for it... or worse yet run out entirely.
2008 Jul 23
Are you talking about proper buffalo mozzerella? Because my experiences are that no matter where you are it is ungodly expensive, and the region where they produce it (near Napoli), are having serious trouble meeting demands. However it is worth it, but at around 10$ a ball, only an occasional treat for those who truly appreciate it.
For general consumption I usually go with Saputo Bocconcini packed in basil oil at one of the places in Byward, about 6$ a container (usually 6 golf ball sized balls) that is the best quality substitute I have found. It is probably made in Canada, I'm not exactly sure.
For general consumption I usually go with Saputo Bocconcini packed in basil oil at one of the places in Byward, about 6$ a container (usually 6 golf ball sized balls) that is the best quality substitute I have found. It is probably made in Canada, I'm not exactly sure.
2008 Jul 23
Tracinho - Ok your post, prompted a look up...
Saputo is indeed Canadian (actually another one of those giant food conglomerates) according to their website they are "the 15th largest dairy producer in the world, the largest in Canada, the third largest in the United States and in Argentina" They sell under a variety namebrands including Saputo and Stella in Canada, they trade on the Toronto Stock Exchange as SAP.
:-)
Saputo is indeed Canadian (actually another one of those giant food conglomerates) according to their website they are "the 15th largest dairy producer in the world, the largest in Canada, the third largest in the United States and in Argentina" They sell under a variety namebrands including Saputo and Stella in Canada, they trade on the Toronto Stock Exchange as SAP.
:-)
2008 Jul 23
F&T - haha i had to do the same thing and look them up on the web because often the containers I buy aren't always properly labeled. I only figured out that the cheese shop here was repackaging them up when I was in Montreal shopping on St Laurent and they had giant Saputo-labeled containers of the same cheese available for sale. It sold there for 1$ a ball...so at least we aren't getting shaken down.
Canadian product or not, it makes for a good caprese at a decent price. If your tomatoes are crap however...not much can be done about that.
Canadian product or not, it makes for a good caprese at a decent price. If your tomatoes are crap however...not much can be done about that.
2008 Jul 23
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GOT MILK ??
Got Milk Supply Management ??
Got Price Fixing ??
Got High Cheese Prices ??
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and from the Dairy Farmers (Cartel) of Canada, "How the Industry Operates" :
www.dairygoodness.ca
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GOT MILK ??
Got Milk Supply Management ??
Got Price Fixing ??
Got High Cheese Prices ??
.
.
.
and from the Dairy Farmers (Cartel) of Canada, "How the Industry Operates" :
www.dairygoodness.ca
2008 Jul 24
Be fair CC. The milk cartel does however provide us with a healthy dairy industry, and very very good milk. It's like the privatized liquor argument to a certain degree. Yes you can buy booze at corner stores in Alberta, or Quebec, but for the most part the selection leaves something to be desired. Worth the price? Some say yes, some say no...
2008 Jul 24
"very good milk"? hardly. factory milk. like just about any factory food, it's mediocre at best.
Here's a good test - take a litre of factory milk and a litre of organic milk and put them in the fridge for a month. both will curdle. but the organic milk will remain perfectly consumable as curdled milk probably for months to come. the factory milk will be rancid and stink the high heavens when you open it.
Just what the heck are they doing to it, to put it into that state? I'm guessing most people probably don't want to know.
Here's a good test - take a litre of factory milk and a litre of organic milk and put them in the fridge for a month. both will curdle. but the organic milk will remain perfectly consumable as curdled milk probably for months to come. the factory milk will be rancid and stink the high heavens when you open it.
Just what the heck are they doing to it, to put it into that state? I'm guessing most people probably don't want to know.
2008 Jul 25
Zym, I presume you've had what they pass off as milk in some parts of Europe (and no, I don't mean the places where you can easily get fresh milk from the farm)? As for the curdle test, at no point did you claim organic tastes different. As for the smell of the curdled product, I will make a big assumption here and guess that the different smell is not due to some nefarious difference between organic and non-organic milk per se, but rather the particular bacteria that are present. I'm pretty sure I could find some 'organic' milk that would smell quite bad after 1 month. Conversely I'm very glad you have a supplier that has supremely clean processing. Of course, if you put Pur Filtre milk in the fridge for a month, it's not curdled AT ALL when you take it out, as the filtration does a better job than pasturization at making sure there are few live bacteria in the product. I beleive the Pur Filtre process is similar to what some beer companies use to filter the yeast out of the beer before bottling, using a ceramic type filter element. My impression (correct me foodies if you know otherwise) was that our dairy and pork farms produce products that are among the finest in the world. And there is just no comparing imported lamb to fresh Ontario spring lamb... (organic or otherwise)
2008 Jul 25
Actually I already know what the nefarious difference is because I had someone at work here describe it to me - he's got a dairy farmer as a neighbour/friend. The only reason I'm not elaborating is that I don't recall all the details and prefer to say nothing rather than foul it up. In effect what they do is disassemble milk into all of it's various constituent pieces, then re-assemble it in different proportions according to their own "recipe". In my view that changes it significantly. And arguably makes it not even "milk" anymore. I know in Germany, processed cheese is not allowed to be called "cheese" for this reason, for example.
The smell is probably due to a different bacteria, but the point is that the factory milk once it goes off is not something any normal person would ever think about consuming.
The only European countries I've had milk in were Germany, where it was basically the same as here, and Soviet Ukraine, where it was basically all organic and some of the most fantastic milk I've ever had. All of their milk would curdle "the right way".
As for taste difference, I do notice one. A fairly big one for things like cream due to all the additives that get put into factory cream.
The smell is probably due to a different bacteria, but the point is that the factory milk once it goes off is not something any normal person would ever think about consuming.
The only European countries I've had milk in were Germany, where it was basically the same as here, and Soviet Ukraine, where it was basically all organic and some of the most fantastic milk I've ever had. All of their milk would curdle "the right way".
As for taste difference, I do notice one. A fairly big one for things like cream due to all the additives that get put into factory cream.
2008 Jul 25
Pete - Ok I'm no expert. But based on what I've read, and what I know from working once upon a time at Agriculture Canada, we have some of the highest food handling practices in the world. Over the years delegations from all over the world including large countries like the Soviet Union, China and even the USA have sent observers here to study our systems. Automated Dairies (both commercial and small scale) were of quite some interest in the 1970s. We still have an amazing record of getting fresh & clean milk from the farmer's milking house to the dairy (by refrigerated truck) thru processing and out to the stores, and onto Canadian tabletops. Some may argue that we have marketing boards for just about everything (and ya, we probably do) but we also have some of the best products that are available to EVERY consumer across the country... milk, eggs, pork, chicken and lamb to name but a few. A huge undertaking if one takes into account just how big this country really is... so that the guy in Newfoundland can sit down to a high quality product, just as easily as the guy in downtown Toronto, or the guy in Whitehorse.
Where there are some discrepancies, is I don't know how much of each item is shipped outside of it's home province, but I do know there are indeed some variations between the provinces... for example, IMO you will find better (leaner) pork in Quebec than elsewhere. Part of this is I believe that pork is a huge commodity in Quebec. Same is true of beef, I think there is better quality beef in Alberta than say Ontario... this isn't to say that the beef in Ontario isn't excellent, just that Alberta's is somewhat better. I know that Alberta Beef is shipped country wide, it may be just that the best stays in Alberta.
Anyways that is my 2 cents.
Where there are some discrepancies, is I don't know how much of each item is shipped outside of it's home province, but I do know there are indeed some variations between the provinces... for example, IMO you will find better (leaner) pork in Quebec than elsewhere. Part of this is I believe that pork is a huge commodity in Quebec. Same is true of beef, I think there is better quality beef in Alberta than say Ontario... this isn't to say that the beef in Ontario isn't excellent, just that Alberta's is somewhat better. I know that Alberta Beef is shipped country wide, it may be just that the best stays in Alberta.
Anyways that is my 2 cents.
2008 Jul 25
F&T - let's not confuse "high quality" with "doesn't kill anyone". Since you've included beef in your list, I will relay my experience the last 8 years or so buying beef directly from local organic farmers, instead of at the supermarket. The flavour is so incredibly different and better in the organic product. I do not for a second consider the supermarket beef "high quality". It's mediocre, at best.
Yes, it's a modern technological wonder that they can do what they do. But let's look at the root motivator in doing it that way - money. The secondary motivator is - let's not kill anyone. Quality never, ever, ever, ever, factors into the equation. The equation being : let's see how much money we can make without killing anyone.
Just like how factory grown veggies have about half the nutrients across the board as organic local ones.
Part of making as much money as possible means hiring as few poeple as possible to do the job EDIT: and concentrating production in as few places as possible. This creates the challenge of getting the food out to people. That challenge goes away completely if you simply change the equation. Let's toss out the idea of making as much money as possible. We can still keep the part about not killing people, since that's important. So now suddenly we can hire a whole lot more people to do the job. i.e more local farmers. Getting the food to people's table is no big challenge because there are now lots of local farmers to do that. Quality goes up. Quantity does not go down. And surprisingly, price does not go up because there aren't huge corporations making billions of dollars a year in profit off of our basic human need to nourish ourselves.
Go figure ...
Yes, it's a modern technological wonder that they can do what they do. But let's look at the root motivator in doing it that way - money. The secondary motivator is - let's not kill anyone. Quality never, ever, ever, ever, factors into the equation. The equation being : let's see how much money we can make without killing anyone.
Just like how factory grown veggies have about half the nutrients across the board as organic local ones.
Part of making as much money as possible means hiring as few poeple as possible to do the job EDIT: and concentrating production in as few places as possible. This creates the challenge of getting the food out to people. That challenge goes away completely if you simply change the equation. Let's toss out the idea of making as much money as possible. We can still keep the part about not killing people, since that's important. So now suddenly we can hire a whole lot more people to do the job. i.e more local farmers. Getting the food to people's table is no big challenge because there are now lots of local farmers to do that. Quality goes up. Quantity does not go down. And surprisingly, price does not go up because there aren't huge corporations making billions of dollars a year in profit off of our basic human need to nourish ourselves.
Go figure ...
2008 Jul 25
our next door neighbour was raised on a farm and now retired after working in a local dairy plant for the last 20 years. A proverbial G. Gordon Liddy type: more than once, i've watched him put a smoke out in the palm of his hand without a trace of irony or machismo (or pain, apparently).
He won't drink store bought milk, though. Taste is one reason, but he says its mostly b/c of the process and crap used to increase shelf-life, the re-assembling as Zym calls it, that he's witnessed over the years.
That's just anecdotal, of course, and for the benefit of any lurking milk board reps, i personally disavow myself from that position. :)
what's the issue w/ European milk, PIO? I lived in Holland as a kid for 3 yrs and remember it being good there and in other countries, and certainly recall my parents lamenting the Cdn milk when we moved back. That was a long time ago, but out of curiosity have European standards declined (or perceived to be worse)?
He won't drink store bought milk, though. Taste is one reason, but he says its mostly b/c of the process and crap used to increase shelf-life, the re-assembling as Zym calls it, that he's witnessed over the years.
That's just anecdotal, of course, and for the benefit of any lurking milk board reps, i personally disavow myself from that position. :)
what's the issue w/ European milk, PIO? I lived in Holland as a kid for 3 yrs and remember it being good there and in other countries, and certainly recall my parents lamenting the Cdn milk when we moved back. That was a long time ago, but out of curiosity have European standards declined (or perceived to be worse)?
2008 Jul 25
Itchy Feet - I've seen a lot of these "old timers" in my day... LOL, the reason he can put out a smoke in the palm of his hand and not flinch is calluses... some from working around the farm, a whole lot from milking by hand when he was younger. I also know a lot of farmers who also won't have a thing to do with "city milk", that is because they prefer milk straight from the cow (which unless you are the dairy farmer is illegal). They grew up on the stuff, and they feel they know their cows intimately... the dairy not so much.
2008 Jul 25
hey zym how sure are you about:
"Just like how factory grown veggies have about half the nutrients across the board as organic local ones."
I've heard this argument many times but never seen data to back it up. In fact I've seen data showing the opposite that there are no nutrition differences. Note, I'm not commenting on taste, or any other subjective issues on organic vs non-organic - just the nutrient bit.
"Just like how factory grown veggies have about half the nutrients across the board as organic local ones."
I've heard this argument many times but never seen data to back it up. In fact I've seen data showing the opposite that there are no nutrition differences. Note, I'm not commenting on taste, or any other subjective issues on organic vs non-organic - just the nutrient bit.
2008 Jul 25
I've not yet read the book myself, but I'm told it's very well documented in "The End of Food".
www.amazon.ca/dp/1553651693
www.amazon.ca/dp/1553651693
2008 Jul 25
F&T: yeah, i've seen (and had) plenty a calluses in my day. My neighbour's are out of the ordinary: they've got tiny little Chuck Norrises living on the ends of them.
But, the significance is he's old-school in the sense of not being a whiner, and not (normally) ranting about the practices of those who until recently signed his cheques. W/ that perspective of having grown up on a farm and having worked in a dairy/plant, his diatribes while anecdotal, do make me pause.
But, not enough to take issue w/ the dairy boards. (Looks over shoulder nervously ... shudders and resumes work.)
But, the significance is he's old-school in the sense of not being a whiner, and not (normally) ranting about the practices of those who until recently signed his cheques. W/ that perspective of having grown up on a farm and having worked in a dairy/plant, his diatribes while anecdotal, do make me pause.
But, not enough to take issue w/ the dairy boards. (Looks over shoulder nervously ... shudders and resumes work.)
2008 Jul 25
There's a disconnect here between the original point "Canada's mast produced agriculture is better than other country's mass produced agriculture" and the point that some people are making "Local, organic, fresh, boutique farm produce is better than mass-produced agriculture products". Two very different things. There's no doubt that Canada's food safety practices are among the best, and that does indeed often translate into much better tasting products.
2008 Jul 25
Is there indeed "no doubt" in the idea "that Canada's food safety practices are among the best"? Doesn't that invoke comparisons with other like countries, e.g., those with modern, (post-)industrial infrastructures, etc.?
And if so, is there published work that demonstrates we should have confidence across the board?
I'd like to hope so, but tossing beef into this as one example (since its been raised above), what's the percentage tested for "mad-cow" now and in the recent past? I think our percentages have improved, but they still don't compare favorably w/ those in Japan and Korea (where, incidentally, there have been mass protests against US imposed beef imports). That's one sector. How do we compare in other sectors, say w/ countries in Europe?
that noted, its Friday and i'm heading out to throw my caution to the wind. :)
And if so, is there published work that demonstrates we should have confidence across the board?
I'd like to hope so, but tossing beef into this as one example (since its been raised above), what's the percentage tested for "mad-cow" now and in the recent past? I think our percentages have improved, but they still don't compare favorably w/ those in Japan and Korea (where, incidentally, there have been mass protests against US imposed beef imports). That's one sector. How do we compare in other sectors, say w/ countries in Europe?
that noted, its Friday and i'm heading out to throw my caution to the wind. :)
2008 Jul 25
Good point itchy feet, especially about the mad cow. Our practices there remain quite deplorable. We still allow animal-based feed to be fed to vegetarian animals. And our testing levels are shameful. This all goes back to my basic formula "how much money can we make without killing anyone". And believe me, the people running these businesses are willing to push the limits on that equation to the extreme and squeeze out every last penny, even if it does end up killing a few people.
2008 Jul 25
hi Brian Mc, i apologize: i had one foot out the door, so my response was a bit more haughty than intended. First, who uses "indeed" in the way i did? Second, who asks for "published" evidence on a Friday night?
both of these transgressions weighed heavily on me through my first couple pints. Is there a way to bring this thread back to the cost of Mozzerella? :)
both of these transgressions weighed heavily on me through my first couple pints. Is there a way to bring this thread back to the cost of Mozzerella? :)
2008 Jul 26
Hi Zym,
My milk taste comparison with Europe may have been weighted towards England, but I 'thought' it was similar all over Europe. The difference (although, maybe that is not the case now) is that their rules for pasturization either have a longer hold time, or a higher temp (can't remember which) which makes the milk take on a slightly 'scalded' flavour. This is why milks like 'Pur Filtre' taste more like milk from the cow, as it doesn't require the same pasteurization as unfiltered milk. Anyone know about these pasteurization differences? Zym, you also make the point that larger scale farming is purely about corporate money, and I totally challenge you on that point. The basic reality is, that we (North America) could NOT POSSIBLY grow enough food if everyone grew it as some organic farmers do. Yes, the corporations have jumped into the business, as they detected that a profit was to be made, but modern agricultural practices are the reason for the abundance (compared to 150 years ago) of food in the world, and I don't think it's fair to tar and feather the whole practice like that.
My milk taste comparison with Europe may have been weighted towards England, but I 'thought' it was similar all over Europe. The difference (although, maybe that is not the case now) is that their rules for pasturization either have a longer hold time, or a higher temp (can't remember which) which makes the milk take on a slightly 'scalded' flavour. This is why milks like 'Pur Filtre' taste more like milk from the cow, as it doesn't require the same pasteurization as unfiltered milk. Anyone know about these pasteurization differences? Zym, you also make the point that larger scale farming is purely about corporate money, and I totally challenge you on that point. The basic reality is, that we (North America) could NOT POSSIBLY grow enough food if everyone grew it as some organic farmers do. Yes, the corporations have jumped into the business, as they detected that a profit was to be made, but modern agricultural practices are the reason for the abundance (compared to 150 years ago) of food in the world, and I don't think it's fair to tar and feather the whole practice like that.
2008 Jul 28
As P-in-O say's: "Yes, the corporations have jumped into the business, as they detected that a profit was to be made ... and I don't think it's fair to tar and feather the whole practice ... ".
Besides, some of us feed our families by investing in agri-business. Including (the so called 'evil') Monsanto.
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So to close the loop on the 'high' cost of mozzarella .... Let's just blame it on Monsanto and /or other agri-business interests (including marketing boards, cartels and consortiums).
PS: The picture is Rembrant's famous Syndics of the Clothmaker's Guild 1662 (or The Staalmeesters). An early 'marketing board' to 'control' the price of clothing. So this is nothing new at all.
Besides, some of us feed our families by investing in agri-business. Including (the so called 'evil') Monsanto.
.
.
.
.
So to close the loop on the 'high' cost of mozzarella .... Let's just blame it on Monsanto and /or other agri-business interests (including marketing boards, cartels and consortiums).
PS: The picture is Rembrant's famous Syndics of the Clothmaker's Guild 1662 (or The Staalmeesters). An early 'marketing board' to 'control' the price of clothing. So this is nothing new at all.
2008 Jul 28
I was going to write "To the original poster's quest for a really good/fresh mozzarella" but, no, I read back and Brian Mc is just looking for cheap. Ha! Sorry, I can't help you there. And then you wrote that you just wanted cow's milk mozzarella??? What?!! There's just no helping you then. :)
There is NO COMPARISON in deliciousness once you've had the buffala.
And for really good/fresh mozzarella di bufala (this cheese has a VERY SHORT freshness life i.e. a couple days - tops) I suggest a little trip to Woodstock, Vermont to visit a very unique farm...then drive and/or eat fast.
Bufala di Vermont ~ 100% water buffalo milk AND super fresh! A case pack of four 8oz balls (equals almost a kg) is 30 bucks. I bet your balls were smaller in Europe Brian Mc. heh heh
And they also have bufala meats/salami - it looks and tastes similar to beef, but "has 80% less saturated fat and 25% less cholesterol". Worth a trip. And water buffalo! Cool!
www.bufaladivermont.com
On a side note, it was in the news earlier this year that trash-dumping around Naples/prime mozzarella di bufala producing regions resulted in elevated dioxin levels in the cheese. This most definitely affected production there and, hence, prices here/everywhere. Some countries even banned the import. I'm not sure how/if this has been resolved.
There is NO COMPARISON in deliciousness once you've had the buffala.
And for really good/fresh mozzarella di bufala (this cheese has a VERY SHORT freshness life i.e. a couple days - tops) I suggest a little trip to Woodstock, Vermont to visit a very unique farm...then drive and/or eat fast.
Bufala di Vermont ~ 100% water buffalo milk AND super fresh! A case pack of four 8oz balls (equals almost a kg) is 30 bucks. I bet your balls were smaller in Europe Brian Mc. heh heh
And they also have bufala meats/salami - it looks and tastes similar to beef, but "has 80% less saturated fat and 25% less cholesterol". Worth a trip. And water buffalo! Cool!
www.bufaladivermont.com
On a side note, it was in the news earlier this year that trash-dumping around Naples/prime mozzarella di bufala producing regions resulted in elevated dioxin levels in the cheese. This most definitely affected production there and, hence, prices here/everywhere. Some countries even banned the import. I'm not sure how/if this has been resolved.
2008 Jul 28
Thanks Itchy ...
I used to use the Rembrant painting as a computer screen wallpaper when wallpaper first came out in the 90's. It was to remind me of just how most (big $$$) business goes down in the real world. (The naive engineer enters into biz.) .... Old Boys Network, back-handers, brown envelopes, sole-sourcing, preferred supplier, etc etc.
The other picture I remember using as wallpaper was Goyas' 'The Third of May 1808'. Shown here.
Whenever I learned a 'hard lesson' on just how things went down, I would pull this painting up. It was the guy with the white shirt that seemed to be the only guy in the world in a worse spot than me.
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And to stay on topic ... Can we Canadians use our own buffalo (western, not water) to make a Canadian 'Real' Mozzarella ?
I used to use the Rembrant painting as a computer screen wallpaper when wallpaper first came out in the 90's. It was to remind me of just how most (big $$$) business goes down in the real world. (The naive engineer enters into biz.) .... Old Boys Network, back-handers, brown envelopes, sole-sourcing, preferred supplier, etc etc.
The other picture I remember using as wallpaper was Goyas' 'The Third of May 1808'. Shown here.
Whenever I learned a 'hard lesson' on just how things went down, I would pull this painting up. It was the guy with the white shirt that seemed to be the only guy in the world in a worse spot than me.
.
.
And to stay on topic ... Can we Canadians use our own buffalo (western, not water) to make a Canadian 'Real' Mozzarella ?
Brian Mc
Mozzarella/Tomatoes/Basil = Best culinary combo ever, but I can't afford to make myself a simple baguette here in Ontario.
I pay between 0.50 and 0.80 for a mozzarella ball at any grocery store in Europe (Ireland, UK, France, Germany, Belgium, you name it). Now I'll be generous and say we have to factor in the exchange rate (despite prices often being 1 for 1 vis-a-vis the dollar) so say between $0.70 and $1.20 a ball. So why on earth do I have to pay treble that or more here? No chance transportation from Italy to Ireland is that much cheaper than Italy to Canada, especially considering the quantities being imported.
Is it a cartel??? Does anyone know of cheap blackmarket Mozza dealers down Ottawa's dark alleyways?