Open book [General]
2006 Dec 1
that's cool! :)
i wonder if many other people on here have been to Algonquin?
I took night classes (mostly for fun, even though they were credited) and completed the international culinary skills certificate.. i learned a LOT, and got to try a few things i had never tried before (Oysters and foie gras most notably). I was looking to take other classes, but it's very limited for the night classes now. There's not a lot that's offered. :(
i wonder if many other people on here have been to Algonquin?
I took night classes (mostly for fun, even though they were credited) and completed the international culinary skills certificate.. i learned a LOT, and got to try a few things i had never tried before (Oysters and foie gras most notably). I was looking to take other classes, but it's very limited for the night classes now. There's not a lot that's offered. :(
2006 Dec 1
Bravo to Mousseline for providing us with an exhaustive list of her possible conflicts of interest! I.M.H.O. full disclosure means the value of her comments and ratings just took a huge leap.
It's probably inevitable that folks with a stake in a restaurant are going to post biased reviews, posing as the disinterested foodie. Can anything really be done about it?
Re: the possibility of some skullduggery on the TJ Pagoda's page: am I correct, Fresh Foodie, that your site will block users of the same computer from adding a restaurant as their favourite multiple times, no matter how many new profiles they create?
RJW, RMG, and Jmack all seem exceptionally positive about this new restaurant. Yet only RJW (the first of the three to join) has marked it as a favourite.
It's probably inevitable that folks with a stake in a restaurant are going to post biased reviews, posing as the disinterested foodie. Can anything really be done about it?
Re: the possibility of some skullduggery on the TJ Pagoda's page: am I correct, Fresh Foodie, that your site will block users of the same computer from adding a restaurant as their favourite multiple times, no matter how many new profiles they create?
RJW, RMG, and Jmack all seem exceptionally positive about this new restaurant. Yet only RJW (the first of the three to join) has marked it as a favourite.
2006 Dec 1
Thanks, Mousseline.. it's great to have someone so connected here! :)
Umamiman, there's no accurate way to prevent users from creating multiple profiles from the same computer. (This isn't even desirable in the case where people share a computer with someone else.) The only thing I can enforce automatically is one account (and therefore one vote) per email address.
Of course this opens up the possibility for abuse. A malicious user can create several profiles using several slightly different email addresses. This is where my geek experience and anal-retentivity come in handy. I manually check over each new account and if the email address is suspect I will contact the owner for more information. Eventually, I would delete an account for which I cannot confirm an owner.
At registration time, I also automatically prevent people from using accounts from "temporary" and "single use" email providers.
Further down the road, if a user has posted just one glowing review and has never accessed their account for a long time, I have no problem deleting their account. When i delete an account, the votes associated with it are zeroed.
With these relatively simple measures, I plan to maintain a very high level of quality on this site. The odd hiccup will slip through.. but only temporarily!
-----
Since I'm already writing about abuse, let me pontificate a bit more! ;-) The voting system I've created here is intended to be a kind of self-healing system. Imagine that the people in charge of some chain (let's call it "Danny's") send out a memo to all their Ottawa staff telling them to get themselves an OttawaFoodies account and give a thumbs up to Danny's Restaurant. Here's what would happen:
* 80 people sign up.
* 80 "thumbs ups" for Danny's.
* Danny's moves quickly to the top of the "Top 10" list.
* Existing OttawaFoodies users go, "What the..?? NO WAY!!!"
* Existing OttawaFoodies users start a forum topic about this fishy situation.
* Existing OttawaFoodies users give 120 "thumbs down" votes.
* Danny's is now firmly at the bottom of any list.
* Some time later, I go and delete all the "single use" accounts.
* Danny's learns the lesson the hard way.. they're stuck at the bottom of the list until each member who gave it a thumbs down can be convinced that their food is actually all right.
Of course you don't need to care about any of this. I thought things through so you don't have to! :)
Umamiman, there's no accurate way to prevent users from creating multiple profiles from the same computer. (This isn't even desirable in the case where people share a computer with someone else.) The only thing I can enforce automatically is one account (and therefore one vote) per email address.
Of course this opens up the possibility for abuse. A malicious user can create several profiles using several slightly different email addresses. This is where my geek experience and anal-retentivity come in handy. I manually check over each new account and if the email address is suspect I will contact the owner for more information. Eventually, I would delete an account for which I cannot confirm an owner.
At registration time, I also automatically prevent people from using accounts from "temporary" and "single use" email providers.
Further down the road, if a user has posted just one glowing review and has never accessed their account for a long time, I have no problem deleting their account. When i delete an account, the votes associated with it are zeroed.
With these relatively simple measures, I plan to maintain a very high level of quality on this site. The odd hiccup will slip through.. but only temporarily!
-----
Since I'm already writing about abuse, let me pontificate a bit more! ;-) The voting system I've created here is intended to be a kind of self-healing system. Imagine that the people in charge of some chain (let's call it "Danny's") send out a memo to all their Ottawa staff telling them to get themselves an OttawaFoodies account and give a thumbs up to Danny's Restaurant. Here's what would happen:
* 80 people sign up.
* 80 "thumbs ups" for Danny's.
* Danny's moves quickly to the top of the "Top 10" list.
* Existing OttawaFoodies users go, "What the..?? NO WAY!!!"
* Existing OttawaFoodies users start a forum topic about this fishy situation.
* Existing OttawaFoodies users give 120 "thumbs down" votes.
* Danny's is now firmly at the bottom of any list.
* Some time later, I go and delete all the "single use" accounts.
* Danny's learns the lesson the hard way.. they're stuck at the bottom of the list until each member who gave it a thumbs down can be convinced that their food is actually all right.
Of course you don't need to care about any of this. I thought things through so you don't have to! :)
2006 Dec 1
Well, I'm not saying that Jmack does or doesn't have any connections with TJ Pagoda's, I just made an observation, and he made a response...fair enough. It just got me thinking that I've worked with a lot of people in this town, and for a few as well. This can be good or bad...there are some employers and ex-coworkers I have less than fond memories of, but I've also gotten to know some really great people.
The fact that I cook for a living impacts on my choices for restaurant meals, but so do other factors in my life. I probably eat out less than a lot of people on this forum, simply because I can cook myself a good meal. I can be picky about where and how I spend my money, but that doesn't mean I'm all that fancy. I'll spend on a nice meal if I want to, but I'm a lot more downtown than uptown. I go to Montreal about twice a year, for rock shows, and meals are an afterthought. One of my fondest food memories of this year was a meal eaten in a "hidden" restaurant at a dive bar in Montreal, with scary biker-bar washrooms. Since food is my living and not my hobby, I probably spend more time in art galleries and at rock shows than I do in restaurants (outside of work). I also spend time apart from my kids when my ex has them, so at least 2/3 of my restaurant meals are eaten alone. This means I notice whether the service is good, bad, intrusive etc. Anyway, I don't think my opinions are the be all and end all. I find this site useful, because I actually find paying for bad food almost painful, and this sometimes keeps me from trying new places.
The fact that I cook for a living impacts on my choices for restaurant meals, but so do other factors in my life. I probably eat out less than a lot of people on this forum, simply because I can cook myself a good meal. I can be picky about where and how I spend my money, but that doesn't mean I'm all that fancy. I'll spend on a nice meal if I want to, but I'm a lot more downtown than uptown. I go to Montreal about twice a year, for rock shows, and meals are an afterthought. One of my fondest food memories of this year was a meal eaten in a "hidden" restaurant at a dive bar in Montreal, with scary biker-bar washrooms. Since food is my living and not my hobby, I probably spend more time in art galleries and at rock shows than I do in restaurants (outside of work). I also spend time apart from my kids when my ex has them, so at least 2/3 of my restaurant meals are eaten alone. This means I notice whether the service is good, bad, intrusive etc. Anyway, I don't think my opinions are the be all and end all. I find this site useful, because I actually find paying for bad food almost painful, and this sometimes keeps me from trying new places.
2006 Dec 2
Excellent thoughts, Fresh Foodie, on preventing restaurantthing.com-style fluffing of restaurants here.
I have to say those problems have made for excellent warnings to avoid certain restaurants, so letting the owner/employee artificial praise stick around for a wee bit, and letting everybody else thumbs-down, is great.
Those owner/employee comments can be great; which see
www.restaurantthing.com
and sometimes they're just hilarious. It's usually easy to tell; they're so often done in that bad menuspeak. A lot of unnecessary capital letters, and plugs for stuff normal people would think is bad or boring -- like "private label bottled water," or brand-name what-not. The East Side Mario's menu seems to think putting "Becel" on noodles might be better than "butter," for example, and only a franchise owner would agree...
See:
www.urbandictionary.com
:-)
I have to say those problems have made for excellent warnings to avoid certain restaurants, so letting the owner/employee artificial praise stick around for a wee bit, and letting everybody else thumbs-down, is great.
Those owner/employee comments can be great; which see
www.restaurantthing.com
and sometimes they're just hilarious. It's usually easy to tell; they're so often done in that bad menuspeak. A lot of unnecessary capital letters, and plugs for stuff normal people would think is bad or boring -- like "private label bottled water," or brand-name what-not. The East Side Mario's menu seems to think putting "Becel" on noodles might be better than "butter," for example, and only a franchise owner would agree...
See:
www.urbandictionary.com
:-)
2006 Dec 2
In addition to the annoyingness of the "fluffers", actually one of my gripes about restaurantthing.com is some of the over-zealous accusers. There have been times that I've posted a glowing review of a restaurant, only to be accused of being associated with the restaurant- when in truth I just really liked my meal. I've seen this happen almost incessantly on that site - it's like you are only allowed to give an average review, if it's too good or too bad you'll be called out for being either an owner, or a disgruntled ex-employee. I hope that the measures taken to prevent "fluffing" on this site will also prevent this additional, unpleasant side-effect.
2006 Dec 3
One of the differences between this site and the restaurantthing site is that we seem to have a greater sense of community. This is a result of several things: user icons, mandatory registration, discussion (contrast against the restaurantthing, which allows exactly ONE post per restaurant per user), and most importantly -- a solid foundation of excellent users.
This sense of community will discourage over-zealous accusations more effectively than anything else ever could.
BTW, the founder of the restaurantthing is a member on this site. He doesn't sign in much though. :-)
This sense of community will discourage over-zealous accusations more effectively than anything else ever could.
BTW, the founder of the restaurantthing is a member on this site. He doesn't sign in much though. :-)
2006 Dec 3
Food is Hot,
I hope you don't have the wrong impression of me as one of these over-zealous accusers. Really, I just noticed a disturbing slant in the entries regarding TJ Pagoda's, coupled with the phrases used by JMack which look as though they could be pulled from the promotional material of whatever restaurant group owns TJ's. Those two factors set off my bullshit radar.
Not every rave review would trigger that response in me. As stated earlier in the thread, people trying to accomplish this sort of end usually end up giving themselves away.
Also at that point no one whose opinion I consider reliable had reviewed the restaurant. I just wanted confirmation or negation of my suspicions. In one of my first posts here I responded to a comment about my workplace (The French Baker) and I made it perfectly clear that I work there, so others can weigh that factor into sizing up my comments. I've been working in restaurants since I was 20, as a line cook at first, I went into pastry later. I turn 39 next week so that's 19 years for the curious among you. I've pretty much been "raised in the culture" of restaurants, and don't swallow bullshit that easily. Anyway, it wasn't my intent to stir up drama, I just wanted to disrupt possible misuse of this site.
As for TJ Pagoda's .....Mark took it upon himself to find out for us.
I hope you don't have the wrong impression of me as one of these over-zealous accusers. Really, I just noticed a disturbing slant in the entries regarding TJ Pagoda's, coupled with the phrases used by JMack which look as though they could be pulled from the promotional material of whatever restaurant group owns TJ's. Those two factors set off my bullshit radar.
Not every rave review would trigger that response in me. As stated earlier in the thread, people trying to accomplish this sort of end usually end up giving themselves away.
Also at that point no one whose opinion I consider reliable had reviewed the restaurant. I just wanted confirmation or negation of my suspicions. In one of my first posts here I responded to a comment about my workplace (The French Baker) and I made it perfectly clear that I work there, so others can weigh that factor into sizing up my comments. I've been working in restaurants since I was 20, as a line cook at first, I went into pastry later. I turn 39 next week so that's 19 years for the curious among you. I've pretty much been "raised in the culture" of restaurants, and don't swallow bullshit that easily. Anyway, it wasn't my intent to stir up drama, I just wanted to disrupt possible misuse of this site.
As for TJ Pagoda's .....Mark took it upon himself to find out for us.
2006 Dec 3
No no, I wasn't refering to you at all, but thanks for your concern all the same. I was referring to 3 or 4 particular reviewers on restaurantthing.com who have more accusations in thier posting history than reviews for restaurants. Thier accusations, in my opinon are generally poorly "proved" "ie: so-and-so uses exclamation points just like so-and-so so they are clearly just the owner shilling for thier own restaurant". Like, a lot of people use exclamation points when they like something - duh. Anyways, I also find many accusations on restaurantthing to be awfully rude and stated as fact instead of just expressing a concern.
Alternativly, I thought you were very polite and respectful when asking the TJ Pagoda reviewer for more information about his background. I also noticed that he did not actually ANSWER your question...he just skirted around it. No clear yes or no was ever given. Interesting :)
Alternativly, I thought you were very polite and respectful when asking the TJ Pagoda reviewer for more information about his background. I also noticed that he did not actually ANSWER your question...he just skirted around it. No clear yes or no was ever given. Interesting :)
2006 Dec 6
Well done Mousseline, I appreciate your candor and echo what others have said about restaurantthing.com and it's frustrating lack of impartiality and, for that matter, lack of useful commentary on the good restaurants. For as many users as it's gathered there's very little useful commentary on WHAT is good at WHAT restaurant and it seems like this site may be able to pick that up.
I tried in vain to keep a thread going about Ottawa Restaurants on eGullet...it seemed like the perfect place for it but it never really took off. Tat's probably due to a number of factors but I don't think the reason is lack of options here. We really do have great restuarants (no matter what Torontonians and Montrealers believe) albeit on a smaller scale and with certain elements not present that some of us still hanker for.
Now back to the subject of your current employer, I may have to marry you to ensure a steady supply of your cursedly good croissants. Oh God are they good.
I tried in vain to keep a thread going about Ottawa Restaurants on eGullet...it seemed like the perfect place for it but it never really took off. Tat's probably due to a number of factors but I don't think the reason is lack of options here. We really do have great restuarants (no matter what Torontonians and Montrealers believe) albeit on a smaller scale and with certain elements not present that some of us still hanker for.
Now back to the subject of your current employer, I may have to marry you to ensure a steady supply of your cursedly good croissants. Oh God are they good.
2006 Dec 6
CharityCase, I hear you about how Ottawa barely exists on egullet. It's too bad but there are so few of us that post on it. I check it once in a while but it's always all about Toronto.
As for the croissants, I have to disappoint you now by telling you I don't make them. I don't have to PAY for them (unless for some reason I want a bunch of them). I'm strictly cakes and pastries. I'm actually the only one in the pastry department that never has to do the baker shift. Being able to stay awake past 8:00 pm is one of my priorities in life :)
Besides, the only man I could marry would have to:
....take me out for a spicy meal and not laugh when my face turns beet red while eating it.
....hang out at an art gallery opening with me (don't worry, the cheese is usually really good)and not act bored.
....go to a rock show, or more than one if the timing works out.
....be able to find me really good spring rolls at 3 am (or at least fairly good ones)
....be a gentleman and trade his potatoes for my bacon at a greasy spoon breakfast.
So in short you would have to be able to endure spicy food, wine and cheese, beer, greasy late night snacks and a greasy breakfast, all on the same day. This is my way of weeding out the lightweights.
;)
As for the croissants, I have to disappoint you now by telling you I don't make them. I don't have to PAY for them (unless for some reason I want a bunch of them). I'm strictly cakes and pastries. I'm actually the only one in the pastry department that never has to do the baker shift. Being able to stay awake past 8:00 pm is one of my priorities in life :)
Besides, the only man I could marry would have to:
....take me out for a spicy meal and not laugh when my face turns beet red while eating it.
....hang out at an art gallery opening with me (don't worry, the cheese is usually really good)and not act bored.
....go to a rock show, or more than one if the timing works out.
....be able to find me really good spring rolls at 3 am (or at least fairly good ones)
....be a gentleman and trade his potatoes for my bacon at a greasy spoon breakfast.
So in short you would have to be able to endure spicy food, wine and cheese, beer, greasy late night snacks and a greasy breakfast, all on the same day. This is my way of weeding out the lightweights.
;)
2006 Dec 7
I see lots of posts...on calling me out...In fact you have called me in. My posts on TJ's were there because that was my last resto experience...I bounce around from TO-MTL-OTT, and I find searching out new spots somewhat hit/miss. I know that this on-line community can help with what is hot and what is not. My take may have come off as copy, but as we all know it is hard to leave work...It is nice when we can be heard, and I know that this site is a forum for that. As for my background or vested interest...I only work for my agency, we ideate & execute traditional & non-traditional marketing platforms for internet portals (not restos). Work takes me here, there and everywhere between....I hope that I can enjoy the forum and from my few experiences and the posts I really do agree that OTT offers a great deal when it comes to enjoying food. I don’t think it should be a OTT vs. MTL vs. TO…I think it should be a “how good is Canada” thing!
2006 Dec 7
JMack...you might want to stop using phrases like "takes fam/casual to the next level" etc if you don't want your posts to be mistaken for shilling.
As far as the Ottawa vs. Toronto thing, you might want to check out the Toronto and Central Canada forum on www.egullet.org BEFORE making assumptions. I was saying that almost all the posts are about Toronto, so anyone looking for information about the restaurant scene in Ottawa wouldn't find much info. Threads about Ottawa wither and die.
If all the drama will get you to pick up your fork and broaden your horizons in Ottawa beyond one restaurant then it's all been worthwhile.
ETA that apparently JMack has beaten me to my suggestion and eaten somewhere besides TJ Pagoda's.
As far as the Ottawa vs. Toronto thing, you might want to check out the Toronto and Central Canada forum on www.egullet.org BEFORE making assumptions. I was saying that almost all the posts are about Toronto, so anyone looking for information about the restaurant scene in Ottawa wouldn't find much info. Threads about Ottawa wither and die.
If all the drama will get you to pick up your fork and broaden your horizons in Ottawa beyond one restaurant then it's all been worthwhile.
ETA that apparently JMack has beaten me to my suggestion and eaten somewhere besides TJ Pagoda's.
Mousseline
I work at The French Baker (and by extension Benny's Bistro, which is why despite the fact that my boys Scotty and Dave have been making some really good food under the radar....I will not review them, since I don't review meals that I don't pay for. Someone else will have to do that. I will however, respond to comments, answer questions about the menu, etc.)
I have a few friends around town, this doesn't mean I'd swing a review in their favour, it just means I might get really good service or offered a tour of the kitchen in a couple of places.
Down the street at Black Cat, I'm on friendly terms with a couple of the sexy ladies in the kitchen there. As well,chef Rene Rodriguez is a former client, when he was at Social I supplied some of his desserts.
I have a friend in the kitchen at the Urban Pear, the most talented cook I know, Mark Currier. He is actually a THIRD generation chef. His mother was a chef, as well as one of his grandparents. He also teaches cooking classes for Loblaws and Hartman's occasionally. Awesome guy.
I also know Ben, but not well. He and Summer consulted on Benny's menu when a former chef left us in the lurch.
Lance at Village Cafe, and Derek Benitz at Stella are both former clients from when I ran the Ritz's bakery. I also supplied Mash for a while, as well as Lapointe's (market location), Von's and Flipper's, Feleena's, Al's Steak House,
and of course the Ritz (Nepean street and Clarence locations). I still keep in touch with some of the staff from time to time, but I'm not sure where they will end up working since the Clarence location has been sold to the ownership of Foundation, and they are putting in a completely different restaurant. I'm NOT on friendly terms with the former owner, James Saikaley.
I have a couple of friends at the Whalesbone, Empire Grill and Oh So Good.
I was taught by Christoph Rutishauser and Tony Bond at Algonquin, and currently work with two of the Algonquin Baking Program staff, pastry goddess Barbara Burkhard who works for Swiss Pastries as well as the French Baker, and Amanda Hearty.
Some former workplaces include The Green Valley, Noah's/Dancing Mermaid/Minto Hotel and Suites.
This is a small town, and pastry chefs and chefs change jobs on an average of about every 2 years or so, so I probably know people elsewhere, but that's as complete a picture as I can make of it right now.
Questions? Comments?