Free Our Beer! Food in the Ontario Election [Booze]
2014 May 22
Here is the form letter you get from the Lberals on the matter
Thank you for your email regarding The Beer Store. I appreciate the time
you have taken to write and share your concerns with me, and I am pleased
to take this opportunity to respond.
Finding by Statistics Canada have shown that after Canadian provinces and
several US states switched to a private retail system underage consumers
were more easily able to purchase alcohol. In addition, after Alberta and
British Columbia switched to a private system they found that their prices
rose sharply. Concerns about alcohol sales practices by private retailers
in Alberta and British Columbia prompted both governments to increase
related monitoring and enforcement, which was paid for by the province.
Our government supports the social responsibility that our current
alcohol-selling system provides. Expert bodies, including the World Health
Organization and the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse, are strong
supporters of the public control of alcohol retailing as an effective
social responsibility measure. Social interest groups and health
researchers concerned about alcohol-related problems also strongly support
the current Ontario retailing model. Our government, like these groups,
believes it is important to have a controlled distribution system.
Both The Beer Store and LCBO staff request photo ID from any person who
appears to be 25 or under and staff refuse service to anyone who appears to
be intoxicated. They use staff training, mystery shopping programs and
managerial performance reviews to ensure responsible sales practices.
In 2013 the LCBO challenged 3.6 million customers and refused service to
59,000 individuals; 42,750 for improper identification and 16,270 for
intoxication. The Beer Store challenged 3.5 million customers and refused
service to 67, 000 individuals. In addition, each Beer Store is visited
three times per year by a “secret shopper” to test the system. Both
organizations also partner with MADD and Arrive Alive, DRIVE SOBER to help
fund and deliver responsible messaging campaigns.
Independent private alcohol retailers would be unlikely to match Ontario’s
current responsible sales practices, even with increased government
spending on monitoring and enforcement.
In the current system churches, community centres and schools can all voice
objections to retail outlets selling beer, wine and hard liquor within a
kilometer of their locations. Potential deregulation and expansion of the
number of liquor retailing outlets in Ontario may raise new issues with
respect to outlet locations, especially convenience stores, located near
schools. Arrive Alive DRIVE SOBER Chair, Anne Leonard believes that
allowing convenience stores and gas stations to stock alcohol would greatly
increase the risk of sale to minors.
Moreover, more than half of Ontarians expect crime rates to increase should
liquor sales be expanded to convenience stores. Limited security would make
convenience stores a greater target for robberies and other crime. This
would necessitate an increased police presence.
In conclusion, I believe that Ontario has a good system in place to monitor
and control alcohol use; one that balances consumer satisfaction with
government regulation and is generally safer for our community.
Once again, thank you for writing. Please do not hesitate to contact me at
my Community Office at any time to share your thoughts and concerns. I look
forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
Yasir Naqvi, MPP
Ottawa Centre
Thank you for your email regarding The Beer Store. I appreciate the time
you have taken to write and share your concerns with me, and I am pleased
to take this opportunity to respond.
Finding by Statistics Canada have shown that after Canadian provinces and
several US states switched to a private retail system underage consumers
were more easily able to purchase alcohol. In addition, after Alberta and
British Columbia switched to a private system they found that their prices
rose sharply. Concerns about alcohol sales practices by private retailers
in Alberta and British Columbia prompted both governments to increase
related monitoring and enforcement, which was paid for by the province.
Our government supports the social responsibility that our current
alcohol-selling system provides. Expert bodies, including the World Health
Organization and the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse, are strong
supporters of the public control of alcohol retailing as an effective
social responsibility measure. Social interest groups and health
researchers concerned about alcohol-related problems also strongly support
the current Ontario retailing model. Our government, like these groups,
believes it is important to have a controlled distribution system.
Both The Beer Store and LCBO staff request photo ID from any person who
appears to be 25 or under and staff refuse service to anyone who appears to
be intoxicated. They use staff training, mystery shopping programs and
managerial performance reviews to ensure responsible sales practices.
In 2013 the LCBO challenged 3.6 million customers and refused service to
59,000 individuals; 42,750 for improper identification and 16,270 for
intoxication. The Beer Store challenged 3.5 million customers and refused
service to 67, 000 individuals. In addition, each Beer Store is visited
three times per year by a “secret shopper” to test the system. Both
organizations also partner with MADD and Arrive Alive, DRIVE SOBER to help
fund and deliver responsible messaging campaigns.
Independent private alcohol retailers would be unlikely to match Ontario’s
current responsible sales practices, even with increased government
spending on monitoring and enforcement.
In the current system churches, community centres and schools can all voice
objections to retail outlets selling beer, wine and hard liquor within a
kilometer of their locations. Potential deregulation and expansion of the
number of liquor retailing outlets in Ontario may raise new issues with
respect to outlet locations, especially convenience stores, located near
schools. Arrive Alive DRIVE SOBER Chair, Anne Leonard believes that
allowing convenience stores and gas stations to stock alcohol would greatly
increase the risk of sale to minors.
Moreover, more than half of Ontarians expect crime rates to increase should
liquor sales be expanded to convenience stores. Limited security would make
convenience stores a greater target for robberies and other crime. This
would necessitate an increased police presence.
In conclusion, I believe that Ontario has a good system in place to monitor
and control alcohol use; one that balances consumer satisfaction with
government regulation and is generally safer for our community.
Once again, thank you for writing. Please do not hesitate to contact me at
my Community Office at any time to share your thoughts and concerns. I look
forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
Yasir Naqvi, MPP
Ottawa Centre
2014 May 22
The thing that they seem to miss that The Beer Store is already a private retail system. And letting Ontario Craft Brewers open their own stores would be really in no way different from the status quo. Except perhaps the smaller breweries would not be able to make the big donations to Liberal coffers that the trans-nationals owning The Beer Store do ...
2014 May 23
Yeah I got that once from Naqvi too. That second paragraph is a corker.
"Finding by Statistics Canada have shown that after Canadian provinces and
several US states switched to a private retail system underage consumers
were more easily able to purchase alcohol."
Love to know what this is referring to. As a market researcher who deals with Stats Can products on a daily basis I'm honestly curious about how they got this information from underaged Canadians... and Americans!
"In addition, after Alberta and
British Columbia switched to a private system they found that their prices
rose sharply."
Government and BS employees have a very hard time understanding that in a private system prices vary from store to store. They can't wrap their hardwired little brains around the idea that prices might be set at what the market is willing to pay. It's also hilarious that this paragraph immediately precedes the usual tripe about "social responsibility". Our system is the most responsible option, also, we can get you drunk on the cheap!!!
"Concerns about alcohol sales practices by private retailers
in Alberta and British Columbia prompted both governments to increase
related monitoring and enforcement, which was paid for by the province."
That's cute. We have a system run out of Queens Park and now they're trying to scare us about hypothetical future monitoring?
The rest is equally gaseous. Everyone should go to an all-candidates debate in their riding and challenge the pols on this nonsense.
"Finding by Statistics Canada have shown that after Canadian provinces and
several US states switched to a private retail system underage consumers
were more easily able to purchase alcohol."
Love to know what this is referring to. As a market researcher who deals with Stats Can products on a daily basis I'm honestly curious about how they got this information from underaged Canadians... and Americans!
"In addition, after Alberta and
British Columbia switched to a private system they found that their prices
rose sharply."
Government and BS employees have a very hard time understanding that in a private system prices vary from store to store. They can't wrap their hardwired little brains around the idea that prices might be set at what the market is willing to pay. It's also hilarious that this paragraph immediately precedes the usual tripe about "social responsibility". Our system is the most responsible option, also, we can get you drunk on the cheap!!!
"Concerns about alcohol sales practices by private retailers
in Alberta and British Columbia prompted both governments to increase
related monitoring and enforcement, which was paid for by the province."
That's cute. We have a system run out of Queens Park and now they're trying to scare us about hypothetical future monitoring?
The rest is equally gaseous. Everyone should go to an all-candidates debate in their riding and challenge the pols on this nonsense.
2014 May 23
Well the listing fee isn't cheap, especially if you want province-wide distribution. You also end up in a horrible retail experience. Keep in mind that most BS are still Soviet-style wall-of-beer deals, and for the ones that are not pride of place is still given to products from the three amigos.
2014 May 23
Why do you think it has to be cheaper?
And shouldn't the breweries themselves be the ones to make that decision, and not the state?
I personally know a good number of the small brewers in Ottawa and most of them would like this freedom. For starters what they are fighting for is cross-brewery sales which they say is a huge step in the right direction. That is, breweries want to be able to do a swap deal with each other and sell each others products. There is your first Ontario Craft Brewers store, and at very little if any extra cost.
And they also want the ability to ship each others products, which would be a massive boon for them. For example, Beaus coming in from Vankleek Hill and passes right by Cassel Brewing. Why are they not allowed to offer a service to Cassel and charge Cassel a delivery fee for delivering products? It is more money on the bottom line for Beaus, and money saved for Cassel because they then don't have to operate their own delivery fleet. This is just stupid.
And shouldn't the breweries themselves be the ones to make that decision, and not the state?
I personally know a good number of the small brewers in Ottawa and most of them would like this freedom. For starters what they are fighting for is cross-brewery sales which they say is a huge step in the right direction. That is, breweries want to be able to do a swap deal with each other and sell each others products. There is your first Ontario Craft Brewers store, and at very little if any extra cost.
And they also want the ability to ship each others products, which would be a massive boon for them. For example, Beaus coming in from Vankleek Hill and passes right by Cassel Brewing. Why are they not allowed to offer a service to Cassel and charge Cassel a delivery fee for delivering products? It is more money on the bottom line for Beaus, and money saved for Cassel because they then don't have to operate their own delivery fleet. This is just stupid.
2014 May 23
Breweries have to deliver their own beer and are not allowed to deliver each other's.
And again I ask : why should we not leave these decisions up to the breweries themselves?
Yes it is still other breweries selling your product, but believe it or not microbreweries in Ontario and indeed right across North America help each other out a great deal. Just look at how much Beaus has helped other micros in the area like giving old tanks to Beyond the Pale and helping out Cassel with an old bottling line. And sending growlers to Broadhead when they ran short. Microbrewers believe that they all benefit whenever someone buys any microbrew. This is not the model used by the "3 Amigos" who own the Beer Store. They use a "to-the-death" competition model.
And again I ask : why should we not leave these decisions up to the breweries themselves?
Yes it is still other breweries selling your product, but believe it or not microbreweries in Ontario and indeed right across North America help each other out a great deal. Just look at how much Beaus has helped other micros in the area like giving old tanks to Beyond the Pale and helping out Cassel with an old bottling line. And sending growlers to Broadhead when they ran short. Microbrewers believe that they all benefit whenever someone buys any microbrew. This is not the model used by the "3 Amigos" who own the Beer Store. They use a "to-the-death" competition model.
2014 May 23
OK I stand corrected on that one - it is something I've seen the breweries mention so I guess I'd better check my context. Maybe Beaus was a bad example.
You still don't want to answer my question : why can we not let the breweries themselves make these decisions?
Here is an example of what happens in the Beer Store. about 8 or 9 months ago my beer store on Scott Street closed down for about 10 days to renovate. When they opened back up, all the craft beers were moved to a different shelf, with collectively about half the shelf space. They insisted when I pressed them on the matter that there were the same number of brands, but they were all crammed into a much smaller space, with fewer of each brand on the shelf. For example, one of the beers I always buy, I would almost never encounter an empty shelf when I went to buy it. Now I regularly encounter an empty shelf. A lot of people when they encounter that will just go buy something else and won't ask whether there is stock out back.
Why can we just not let the breweries make their own decisions?
You still don't want to answer my question : why can we not let the breweries themselves make these decisions?
Here is an example of what happens in the Beer Store. about 8 or 9 months ago my beer store on Scott Street closed down for about 10 days to renovate. When they opened back up, all the craft beers were moved to a different shelf, with collectively about half the shelf space. They insisted when I pressed them on the matter that there were the same number of brands, but they were all crammed into a much smaller space, with fewer of each brand on the shelf. For example, one of the beers I always buy, I would almost never encounter an empty shelf when I went to buy it. Now I regularly encounter an empty shelf. A lot of people when they encounter that will just go buy something else and won't ask whether there is stock out back.
Why can we just not let the breweries make their own decisions?
2014 May 23
Ok. Two different things.
Sure, the craft breweries should be allowed to make their own decisions. What I am saying is that to open your own stores will be more expensive than using the existing, flawed system which can sell you a lot of beer.
As for your local store, the breweries whose beer was moved should be visiting that manager and making their case for more shelf space. There is a strong case for these guys to offer up more space to Craft brewers but often it has to be put to them by a brewery representative. It is the same process at the LCBO stores excepte Craft beers cannot be delisted at the Beer Store.
Sure, the craft breweries should be allowed to make their own decisions. What I am saying is that to open your own stores will be more expensive than using the existing, flawed system which can sell you a lot of beer.
As for your local store, the breweries whose beer was moved should be visiting that manager and making their case for more shelf space. There is a strong case for these guys to offer up more space to Craft brewers but often it has to be put to them by a brewery representative. It is the same process at the LCBO stores excepte Craft beers cannot be delisted at the Beer Store.
2014 May 23
" There is a strong case for these guys to offer up more space to Craft brewers but often it has to be put to them by a brewery representative."
Just curious about where you heard this? The BS has absolutely no incentive to give a non-stakeholder more shelf space than they actually need. You're essentially paying for shelf space, and you're paying for the worst shelf space because the BS has no interest in your brand succeeding.
And yeah AD_2, shelf space and position is actually really important to folks to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into starting a consumer goods business.
Just curious about where you heard this? The BS has absolutely no incentive to give a non-stakeholder more shelf space than they actually need. You're essentially paying for shelf space, and you're paying for the worst shelf space because the BS has no interest in your brand succeeding.
And yeah AD_2, shelf space and position is actually really important to folks to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into starting a consumer goods business.
2014 May 23
Brian Mc and Zymurgist - to explain my quip about shelf space: The arguments up until then were good, making points I cannot based on the detailed knowledge of the rules, legislation, monopoly, studies etc. And then it seemed like the argument drifted to something that is yes important but still kind of sounded like "and when I go to the store my favourite product was moved from A to B."
I agree with all the points and he/she was making the argument much better than I can but that just seemed like a weak point to hang the position on.
That's all.
I agree with all the points and he/she was making the argument much better than I can but that just seemed like a weak point to hang the position on.
That's all.
2014 May 23
AD_2 - if you think what I said was "my favorite product was moved from A to B", then you really have to re-read what I wrote.
The shelf space for craft beers was cut in half. That is a VERY serious retail issue. It is the 3 amigos making a direct attack on the craft beer industry.
The shelf space for craft beers was cut in half. That is a VERY serious retail issue. It is the 3 amigos making a direct attack on the craft beer industry.
2014 May 23
No I don't think we are. I said very clearly that the shelf space for craft beers at Scott St was cut in half. That's all I said. That's all I meant. I believe it is a serious issue. Clearly you disagree I guess. I'm not sure why you are talking about the whole BS network.
You don't think it is an issue that here in hipster central where craft beer rules, that shelf space got halved for craft beer? I would think that simple economics should dictate it be doubled, not halved.
You don't think it is an issue that here in hipster central where craft beer rules, that shelf space got halved for craft beer? I would think that simple economics should dictate it be doubled, not halved.
2014 May 23
Ok then no, I don't think it's a serious issue or even a little issue that the shelf space at one store got halved. I don't think many people consider it an election issue that the shelf space at the Ottawa Scott St beer store was reduced.
If it was a policy, corporate-wide, to halve the shelf space available to craft brewers then yes it's an issue. If it is the start or continuation of a pattern, sure. But you clearly said nothing about that so now we're clear on what is being discussed here.
If it was a policy, corporate-wide, to halve the shelf space available to craft brewers then yes it's an issue. If it is the start or continuation of a pattern, sure. But you clearly said nothing about that so now we're clear on what is being discussed here.
2014 May 23
Well if this were an LCBO, I could conceivably pursue your points further by requesting information on store sales and sales patterns. That is, I could possibly research whether or not there is a systematic plot underway here. I'm not sure whether they make that available, but there would certainly be a strong argument for getting it under access to information.
However, this is a private company. In spite of the Liberal hoo-ha which poo-poos private liquor sales in the province, that is exactly what it is. So there is a zero percent chance I could ever get access to information that would show they are suppressing craft beers.
You simply fail to see the bigger picture here.
In just about ever other walk of public life, we go to great lengths to achieve transparency and avoid conflict-of-interest. However, in this instance, we have a pretty serious conflict-of-interest on the part of the 3 amigos, and zero transparency to follow up on it.
Alcohol is a major industry in Ontario, and a major revenue stream for provincial coffers.
These factors together make it a pretty big election issue for anyone capable of seeing the forest through the trees.
However, this is a private company. In spite of the Liberal hoo-ha which poo-poos private liquor sales in the province, that is exactly what it is. So there is a zero percent chance I could ever get access to information that would show they are suppressing craft beers.
You simply fail to see the bigger picture here.
In just about ever other walk of public life, we go to great lengths to achieve transparency and avoid conflict-of-interest. However, in this instance, we have a pretty serious conflict-of-interest on the part of the 3 amigos, and zero transparency to follow up on it.
Alcohol is a major industry in Ontario, and a major revenue stream for provincial coffers.
These factors together make it a pretty big election issue for anyone capable of seeing the forest through the trees.
2014 May 24
Can't comment on the economic side of things, but will chime in to say that as a former minor, it was never a problem getting alcohol, just often a minor inconvenience. Especially with Quebec so close! Have many fond memories biking to the dep to fill up my backpack with beers, as most deps don't ID anyone who is taller than the counter.
2014 May 24
Zymurgist - I don't know what you're not understanding - I agree with your overall point, that the Beer Store hurts craft brewers, that the monopoly is bad, that the provincial regulations are from another era, no transparency, yadda yadda yadda. But your point about the shelving isn't likely the best argument to get that point across - THIS IS WHAT I WAS COMMENTING ON. Forest for the trees, geez dude.
According to Molson Coors' corporate governance disclosures, in 2013 they gave $85,000 total to political parties in 7 provinces. There are likely many ways around this, such as donating under different corporate names etc. But $85k nationwide isn't a "very large sum of money." Split that evenly and it's $12k / province. Probably not buying too much favour with $12k split amongst at least 2 parties, maybe all 3.
If there are credible documents someone can point to that shows the money trail I'd be interested in reading (a summary of) them.
According to Molson Coors' corporate governance disclosures, in 2013 they gave $85,000 total to political parties in 7 provinces. There are likely many ways around this, such as donating under different corporate names etc. But $85k nationwide isn't a "very large sum of money." Split that evenly and it's $12k / province. Probably not buying too much favour with $12k split amongst at least 2 parties, maybe all 3.
If there are credible documents someone can point to that shows the money trail I'd be interested in reading (a summary of) them.
2014 May 24
Sorry, I was just wondering how the Beer Store hurts craft brewers? Do they favour their own brands? Yes but mostly using policies based on volumes. Have some Craft Beers enjoyed success within the Beer Store system? Yes. Beau's and Flying Monkeys are the two most recent examples.
We may not like the ownership set up of the Beer Store, but I have to disagree that it hurts Craft breweries.
We may not like the ownership set up of the Beer Store, but I have to disagree that it hurts Craft breweries.
2014 May 24
Let's all just have a big hug you guys - see you at the brewery market !
Sorry AD_2 - apparently I did miss that
Sorry AD_2 - apparently I did miss that
2015 Apr 11
Well it certainly looks like our beer is about to be freed! The devil will be in the details, but this is looking very good so far and quite an about-face from where the Liberals were a year ago on this one.
www.thestar.com
www.thestar.com
2015 Apr 11
Yyay! Sorta good news for us out in the sticks, but glad to see that they got our new beer store in Kemptvile built (not sure if it's open yet) before the changes come. Our old beer store may still be open; I take my empties there - it's not a place to buy beer. It's the old style store - place your order and it appears magically from the bowels behind closed doors, rolling out for one to spirit it away. Last fall after taking the empties back I dared to ask for some Kichesippi beer and got "Never heard of it." Sheesh. Gimme my money!
2015 Apr 16
So, in case you haven't seen it yet, here is the latest
www.ottawacitizen.com
A few comments/questions for those who may be better informed :
Any idea who the 450 grocers are (I'm assuming the likes of Loblaws, Sobeys & Metro)? How about Costco (maybe not worth their while if limited to 6 packs and limited annual sales)?
Growlers at the LCBO. So does this mean local brewers will drop off kegs and LCBO staff will dispense me a growler of Lug Tread or Kichesippi 1855? That would be pretty awesome in terms of convenience.
Shame we'll still have to lug our empties back to the BS, hence why I'd be happy about switching to growlers.
Cheers,
A cautiously optimistic Ratty
www.ottawacitizen.com
A few comments/questions for those who may be better informed :
Any idea who the 450 grocers are (I'm assuming the likes of Loblaws, Sobeys & Metro)? How about Costco (maybe not worth their while if limited to 6 packs and limited annual sales)?
Growlers at the LCBO. So does this mean local brewers will drop off kegs and LCBO staff will dispense me a growler of Lug Tread or Kichesippi 1855? That would be pretty awesome in terms of convenience.
Shame we'll still have to lug our empties back to the BS, hence why I'd be happy about switching to growlers.
Cheers,
A cautiously optimistic Ratty
2015 Apr 16
The 450 licenses will be up for auction. Each grocer will submit a proposal for each license and no single entity can acquire more than 10% of the licenses. There will be a prohibition on selling shelf space so that bigger breweries cannot buy up all the space and limit the opportunities of smaller, less capitalized operations. These types of rules are often broken in other jurisdictions. The big multinationals must be delighted that they will now have 450 more retail outlets in which to offer their products. And, beer will increase in price.
As for growlers the the LCBO, I have heard nothing. Seems unworkable to me.
As for growlers the the LCBO, I have heard nothing. Seems unworkable to me.
2015 Apr 17
"In a year or two" it's possible that these changes won't have even taken place yet.
www.theglobeandmail.com
www.theglobeandmail.com
zymurgist
Quote : "Craft breweries want to be able to open their own stores, which would allow them to stock the shelves without paying the Beer Store’s prohibitive fees. They also want to be able to cooperate on distribution so that they can get their beer to restaurants and bars more easily.
The Green Party is calling for the Beer Store’s monopoly to be broken up to create a fair playing field, foster local jobs in the craft brewing industry, and offer more choice to consumers. The Beer Store is a foreign-owned monopoly that made $700 million profit last year."
www.gpo.ca
You can find out more about the GPO platform by watching this video from last night's "The Agenda" on TVO - 20 minutes with GPO leader Mike Schreiner
Any other parties have food in their platform?