Rules for waiters [General]

2008 Mar 15
Sir wilfred gowers-round (1855-1945) became so infuriated by the poor quality and general insolence of waiters that he porposed what he termed a "manifesto of rules" for waiting staff to follow......


#1 A waiter's job is to serve and never to impose himself.
#2 The goal of waiting is inconspicuous service.
#3 Waiters must be clean and smart and should never wear cologne.
#4 Under no circumstances should a waiter ever touch a diner.
#5 Wine glasses should never be filled too full.
#6 Unasked for advice should never be offered.
#7 If diners are content to pour the wine themselves, let them.
#8 Unless asked, no plates should be removed until all have finished.
#9 Women diners should be afforded respect equal to men.
#10 The bill should be placed on the table without ceremony.

,Wilfred Gowers-Round



2008 Mar 15
i agree with all but #5! :)

2008 Mar 15
Lol! I was about to say the same thing! We're just a bunch of lushes here on OttawaFoodies...

2008 Mar 16
My first thought was that I'm amazed this guy lived to age 90 being so uptight!

Though #8 is the only one I don't agree with. One of the few pieces of etiquette I learned was that when you are done eating, you put your cutlery on the plate all lined up together. THat's a sign for the waiter to get the plate out of there as soon as possible. There should be no need to ask.

2008 Mar 16
Speaking to #8, I've had the rare waiter pick up the partially finished plate of my date when they've momentarily left the table, as they look at me like "Are they done?". I find this highly rude, and totally inappropriate. Ask the diner who's eating off the plate if they're done.

2008 Mar 17
I completely agree with #8. I hate when my dining partners plates have be removed and I am still eating. Makes me feel like I have to rush so I am not eating alone or just not finish at all and let them take my plate as well.

One of my major pet peeves actually!

Seems even at what are suppose to be fine dining establishments in this city it happens a lot!

In the slight chance I finish before my guest and the waiter tries to clear my plate I always ask for them to leave the plates until all guests have finished and leave less of a tip for having to say so.

If my guest asks for their plates to be cleared then I am just secretly annoyed at my guest for making an awkward situation.

As for the rest of the rules I am in total agreement!

2008 Mar 17
I totally agree!! #8 must remain!!

Nothing is more anoying then having a great meal and conversation and then all of a sudden your the only one that has food in front of them! Its almost as if the waiter is saying,
"please finish eating so I can clear the #$@%ing table and get you your $%#@ing bill" haha

Or he could (which ive only seen once) thank god, ask the people who have had there plates cleared if they would like to see a dessert menu......Im leaving the resturant at this point..

LONG LIVE SIR WILFRED!!!

2008 Mar 17
I didn't say remove #8, I said to follow the simple rule of etiquette. If the cutlery is placed just right, that's a message to the wait staff to take the plate away. If it isn't, then they should not be doing so without first asking.

Perhaps you are having your plates taken away because you have your cutlery placed in this manner? If so, then you (the impersonal "you", not anyone specifically) are the one in the wrong, not the waiter IMO.

2008 Mar 17
I totally agree with them all actually. While I do love my wine, it's frustrating to get a glass, only to have it delivered with a half-inch left from the top. Then I can't enjoy it properly.

And #8 is totally deserving. I think it's moreso that if people are still eating at the table then the waiter shouldn't be intruding to rush to remove any empty plates until everyone has actually finished eating. I had that happen at a restaurant recently (the server began removing plates as people were still eating off them) and it totally ruined the end of the meal.

2008 Mar 17
Having your cutlery at 4:00 on your plate simply tells the server that you are finished with your meal. It does not mean clear the table.
ie if there is four people eating and 3 of them have there cutlery in this manner and one more is eating, thats a que for the wait staff to know that the table is meant to be cleared soon, not at that moment.
-The table should never be cleared until all the guests at the same table are finshed, UNLESS requested to do so....
my 2 bits..

2008 Mar 17
The only depressing part of reading that is knowing that in over a half century (and could be much more depending on how old we was when he wrote it) things obviously haven't changed much. I agree with all of them.

2008 Mar 17
Sorry, I have to say something about the cutlery remark...I agree, once you are finished your dish that you place the cutlery together on the plate. In doing so you signal to the dining room staff that you are finished but they are to wait until EVERYONE has their cutlery set up in that way and clear all of the plates at once.

It is also a signal for the dining room staff, if you have a lot of food left on your plate to ask if everything was to your satisfaction as soon as they notice the cutlery so they can replace the dish with something to your liking if their is a problem.

Only in a diner would it be ok for the staff to clear your plate before everyone else is finished. Anywhere else-unacceptable.

As for taking food away from the table if the person is absent, absolutely not, unless both people have their cutlery side by side should the dining room staff even ask. "Are they done?' are not the words to be used either maybe a more polite 'may I clear your plates?' would be more appropriate.

But once again if we are talking about dining at Moxie's, what do you expect? It is nothing more than a glorified fast food chain! Poor, inexperienced service is to be expected.


2008 Mar 17
anyone w/ an #11th rule? In a variation on both #5 and #8, mine would forbid the removal of a wine-glass (or beer glass for that matter) with a sip remaining in the bottom. Especially annoying when the glass was "underfilled" (with apologies to Nanook's sensibilities) and over-priced to begin with. Hasn't happened often, but annoying when it did.

2008 Mar 17
"Especially annoying when the glass was "underfilled". Hear hear! I would also like to take issue with #5 - there is no such thing as a wine glass never filled too full! Which is also why I am in favour of the customers pouring their own wine. One of my dining companions will only have one glass however, on occasion, I might like to have a glass or three with dinner. So we will order a small carafe for a glass each then a refill for me unless some well meaning yet misguided server tops up both our glasses hence leaving one glass of wine at the table that my friend did not want.

2008 Mar 17
Hey FoodieMom.. no dissing the diners! One of my mother's first jobs was at a diner style place, and the owner fastidiously trained the staff in the proper way to wait a table. Made the new servers keep practicing on him, and if they couldn't get it right, they wouldn't keep their job. Water filled from this side, fork placed from that, etc etc. On the other hand, I shouldn't be arguing with my dealer (wine that is...).

2008 Mar 18
Part of my rant about the over-filled wine glasses also has to do with the fact that most of the time the wine isn't served in the proper glass! I never used to really care about it until Mr. Nanook taught me how to 'open' a wine and I was shocked at the difference in the taste. I guess you could call me a wine snob in training. lol.

I was actually really impressed at the Heart and Crown on Preston when my red arrived in a proper red wine glass with the proper serving amount. If I'm paying $8 for a glass of wine, I expect it to be served to industry wine-serving standards.

2008 Mar 18
Nanook your story reminds me of a humorous experience I had in a Japanese restaurant in Toronto a couple of years ago. On this particular occasion I ordered some plum wine to have with my meal. When the waiter brought my wine to the table another waiter took him to the back of the restaurant and spoke to him very sternly (and quite loudly) in Japanese. It was a small restaurant and the "back" of the restaurant was a miniscule area sectioned off by a bamboo curtain so the customers could hear everything. Now I don't speak Japanese but anyone could tell by the tone of voice the young man that served me was being reprimanded. You can imagine the startled look on my face when the waiter came scurying back to my table, whisked away my wine, and came back with my wine in another glass. I presume he poured the wine in the wrong glass.... Although I enjoy a nice glass of wine I know little about the "proper" type of glass one should be using and I am sure I would have enjoyed that wine in the glass it was originally served in.

2008 Mar 18
Speaking of faux pas with pouring wine in other countries - in Russia and Ukraine it's a major faux pas to pour with your hand under the bottle (i.e. 'backhanded'). It's a major insult to the person you are pouring for. You must always pour with your hand on top of the bottle.

2008 Mar 18
Nope, I'm all for #5. By not filling the wine glass too full you can give the illusion that you're really good at holding your liquor.

"Yeah, I had FIVE GLASSES of wine last night, and here I am, fresh as a daisy!"

(Easy to say when each glass is two ounces at the bottom of your huge Riedel glass.)

2008 Mar 18
Ha, ha, I knew 2 guys who did that with beer when we were out (underage) drinking on the weekends. They'd alway split on a 24 but if you hung out with them (in the woods) they'd give at least half of it away. But the next day sure enough they'd be bragging about drinking a dozen each the night before :-)

2008 Mar 18
I know, I know, .... off topic ..... but I had to share.

My underage drinking spot in the woods, complete with campfire and sometimes guitars, was called The Brown Street Country Club.

Some of the boys even went out and got "Brown St. Country Club" patches made for their jackets. They were tres kewl in grade 10 (1977).


2008 Mar 18
Re: #8 - maybe I'm the only one but I don't like having an empty plate sit in front of me. I was taught at an early age about the cutlery etiquette/signifying you're finished the meal

2008 Mar 19
Pete-I was not 'dissing diners', love them! I just don't expect or pay for a high level of service. Although it is nice when I get it.

Speaking of 'diner etiquette', maybe I should start a new thread but, seems for some reason customers feel it is ok to stack up their plates on top of each other. Why is this? Makes it very hard for the wait staff to clear more than 2 peoples settings at once especially if there are side plates involved. They have to restack the plates touching messy germ ridden plates, napkins etc. or run the risk of dropping them on their way to the dish pit if they want to clear them all at once.

There is a system to clearing plates that goes totally out the window when people 'think' they are helping by stacking them on top of eachother.

2008 Mar 19
Capt'n Caper - at my High School, our party group was called The Outdoorsmens's Club. Someone would anonymously add to the school message list the 'meeting', and it would get read over the public address system "There will be a meeting of the Outdoorsmens Club this Friday". Took the administration about 2 or 3 months to catch on if I remember correctly, after which they created an 'official' Outdoors Club to mask their embarassment. (Official meaning less beer, more snowshoeing) If only we'd thought of making patches for our jackets!

2008 Mar 19
Something that really bothers me and isn't mentioned here is coffee-cup filling. I worked as a waitress for a brief time and was taught to fill the customer's coffee mug away from the table, holding the mug and with my body partially shielding the customer (in case the coffee spilled or the pot exploded or what have you). I hate it when a server leans over the table to fill my coffee mug!

2008 Mar 20
Pam: I guess it goes to show that I have never seen a waitress fill my mug away from the table! That totally makes sense, and would definitely cut down on the amount of coffee spilled all over the table.

2008 Mar 20
The wife and I were treated to a totally WONDERFULL dinner at Juniper last night. The food, the composition of the food, and the service were all top notch. Because of this thread, I was specifically looking for some of the behaviours. I can say the plates were not removed until the last person was finished, and even then the waiter politely asked (the last person) if she was finished. When she replied yes, all the plates were whisked away quickly, and unobtrusivly. The only possibly negative (according to Pam anyways) was that the server refilled my coffee without removing the cup from the table. That being said, my cup was the only one requiring refilling, and I was sitting on the aisle, and at no point did the server have to lean over me, or the table to accomplish this task (actually my cup was near the edge). A further well polished touch was that although there was a bottle of wine ordered for the table, I also had a martini. My wine glass was taken away, and the martini delivered... and after my martini was finished (or very near), my wineglass magically reappeared and was filled (to the appropriate 2ish fingers). Anyway, I've been to Juniper before and enjoyed it, but they were really on their game last night.

2008 Mar 21
That's funny Pete, James and I were at Juniper last night (Thursday) and they were again at the top of their game. I had the same experience with the martini vs wine glass. I love Juniper, they're probably our favourite fine dining place in Ottawa at this point.

2008 Mar 21
Also saw FreshFoodie's doppelganger there, although it might be because I wasn't wearing my glasses. Mark, were you at Juniper last night? :)

2008 Mar 21
Nope! I was eating leftover lasagne at home. If it had been me I would have said hi to you guys. :-)

2008 Mar 28
I had an experience at Sweetgrass where my date went to the bathroom half-way through the meal.
The waitress came by and asked me if he was done his meal, and i honestly had no idea ( I was finished). There was a little food left on the plate, but I was unsure.
First, I personally don't like it when guests leave the table to go to the bathroom half-way through the meal, especially if there is only 2 people at the table to begin with. I'm sure it makes it very confusing for the staff, and I found it to be a little rude I guess. If you need to go to the bathroom, go before or after, or during a 'break' in the meal, not during. Unless the food is HORRIBLE and you're going to the bathroom to throw up. haha
Second, it made it awkward that she was asking ME if he was done his meal, like I knew.
I didnt know how to rate the experience. It was mainly my dates fault that the waitress asked me about the plate, but for some reason I ended up sort of snarling at her for asking me.

Am I the only one that goes to the bathroom after dessert?


2008 Mar 28
My bladder dictates that I go when it says I go.

2008 Mar 28
Aye, I have to side with zymurgist. You go when nature calls. I don't think there's anything rude about getting up during your meal.

2008 Mar 28
Zym - I hope that doesn't mean you wear a diaper when you dine out? ;) On that note, I agree, when nature calls I always respond by hitting the nearest available casa de pepe.

edit: I have to add though, that if someone gets up to take a phonecall on their mobile during the meal for any prolonged period of time will not get asked on a second date, IMHO.

2008 Mar 28
I (rather decidedly) don't have a cell phone so that's not an issue for me :-) I do agree that it would be extremely rude to take a call - any call IMO, no matter the length. Personally what I don't understand about cell phones is why someone would WANT to be reachable all the time. Yes, you can turn them off. But people rarely do. I believe the tail has begun to wag the dog ...

2008 Mar 29
I agree with the phones. Unfortunately, my husband is on-call 24 hours a day and it sometimes happens that he must take a call during a dinner out. Sometimes he can't just go outside (rain snow etc).

Maybe the bathroom is better? I dunno, I'd get more annoyed about hearing a conversation in a bathroom than in a main eating area where people are supposedly already talking so at least it's drowned out a little.

2008 Mar 29
Except Tiana, if one of the rest of us are the ones that have to listen to that phone call! As you note, there is often 'noise' to drown it out a little, which often just causes the person talking on the phone to talk louder. At the very least, the ringer should be turned off, or very low. Also, very few people are actually 'on call' as in, they absolutely have to answer the phone when it rings. Most people can afford to let it go to voice mail, if required, and listen to the voice mail within 5 or 10 minutes, and then decide it if it warrants a callback. The SAME type of jobs that are now on call with cell phones, used to be served very well with pagers, which always would require a call back. I'm in the same boat as zymurgist here.. I don't have a cell phone (yet), and if I did, would likely have it turned off most of the time. As for Sadie's 'no bathroom' requirement... well I have to sort of side with Sadie, at least in theory. Most people can 'more or less' regulate their bathroom requirements... and if the date is important, you'd think you could remember to go before dinner, or wait till after. However, I toss this into the 'its a courtesy'. It should not be required, nor would I get angry if my date had to visit nature.

2008 Mar 29
Pete, I would say the vast majority of people really could wait an awful lot longer than 5 or 10 minutes to check that voicemail. Very few people are actually on call all the time. And far fewer are important enough that they really NEED to take that phonecall. The problem is as I've stated - tail wagging the dog. I think people have lost their perspective on things. Ironically, I work in high tech and I'm a luddite :-)

2008 Mar 31
Not to be a huge creeper Zym....
do you/did you work at Nortel by chance?

I think it's just me having something weird about bathrooms and restaurants... I think it's just awkward. haha. Like, what is the other person supposed to do when the date leaves for the bathroom? Maybe I'm just socially strange.


2008 Apr 1
Well SadieLady, if you strike up a conversation with a gentleman at the next table, who's date has also gone to the bathroom, it might provide for more dating opportunities ;-)

2008 Apr 1
Yup, NOrtel. You too?
BTW, I'm eating lunch at my desk right now so this is my time, not theirs :-)

2008 Apr 1
Ok, "Etiquette & its Nuances" is a favourite topic of mine, so I'll give you my take on this. It is always awkward (for those left behind) when during the meal someone gets up to use the loo, between courses is far more acceptable... and waiting to the end of the meal is best. Cellphone useage is never appropriate, (although it is something we've all probably been guilty of at one time or another). Phone should be switched off for dinner (or in the least on vibrate) this is especially so if you are having dinner in a restaurant. Same thing at home, phone should not be answered, it should be allowed to go to voicemail. If it is important enough for them, they'll leave you a message that you can return at the end of the meal. Afterall we are entitled to time to eat, sleep and for body maintenance (stuff ya do in the loo, LOL). Unfortunately in today's world we've forgotten these simple facts, making ourselves too available to others (which in itself is a faux pas of etiquette... no we don't have to tell everyone everything about us - like our age, how much money we make, or why we were on sick leave, nor should anyone be so bold to ask - we are entitled to privacy and private space).

2008 Apr 1
Pete,
that only works if his date goes to bathroom too! And he has to be sitting rather close.

:( dont think it will happen! haha Id have to be pretty lucky!


2009 Jan 13
Interesting discussion. I've always enjoyed the pre-meal bathroom visit: a chance to wash up, possibly kill time during a bad date or a long service time, and, of course, check out the loo. Never considered the fact that making such a visit during the course of the meal would be considered bad etiquette, but I see the point there.

Don't want to change topics (I'm new to the site), but can I get some feedback on favourite WC's in Ottawa??

2009 Jan 13
Hi DK - I am what one would call a sort of etiquette expert (had to know all this stuff for a previous job in Internatiional Affairs)... just so you know, washing up BEFORE is always considered good etiquette. So a trip to the loo once you have been seated is ok... and of course you should offer the same courtesy to your date. Also you should ensure that the table is not left entirely vacant (which is rude to the Host, which in this case is the Restaurant). Therefore things should go like this...

Assuming that you are the man... you would say

I believe I will head off to the loo to freshen up. If she says me too... then you should offer her to go ahead, saying... I will wait for you to return, would you like me to order a drink for you while you are gone?

This way by the time she returns either her drink will have arrived or be enroute. She will have the menu to look over in your absence (an amount of time which is generally shorter for men) and therefore will not be left alone too long... which is bad manners for any man... He should always ensure the comfort of his date before himself.

--- --- ---

Loo duties where the HOST is an actual person should be carried out before the Call To Be Seated.

--- --- ---

As for checking out WCs that is most definitely a Girl Thing (and I did check your Profile DK and know that you are infact female). It reveals a lot about a place. I know plenty of gals who will not eat at a place if the loo is not in top shape.

As for Favourite WCs in Ottawa, sounds like a great topic. You should start a new thread for it though.

2009 Jan 22
OMG does #8 ever piss me off!!!!!!

It is unbelievable how few servers in Ottawa actually know this!!!!

I am usually the last one to savour my meal when we go out as a group, and I am almost always the only one with a plate in front of me at the end of the meal.

It even happened on this past Tuesday evening at the new Black Cat.

Go to Italy or France and this would NEVER happen. But, over there, serving is treated as a true profession, not just something you do during college to pay for your tuition.

OK, enough of my rant, back to my steak frites.. :)

2009 Jan 23
Agreed: #8 is a sore point for me, too. Not once should a server give the impression that they just want you to leave and make room for more paying customers!