Foodie exploitation vs festivals and chef celebrities [General]
2014 Apr 26
I really don't see this anti-customer attitude that you describe. You'll always find the lunatic fringe if you look hard enough but that doesn't indicate any trend.
I do agree that the idea of lining up for hours for a food product that you can get almost instantly elsewhere, just because it's part of a 'festival', is beyond comprehension.
i'm also not sure if celebrity chefs is anything new but perhaps there is more quantity of them today. There are lots of television channels with lots of hours to fill in programming.
I do agree that the idea of lining up for hours for a food product that you can get almost instantly elsewhere, just because it's part of a 'festival', is beyond comprehension.
i'm also not sure if celebrity chefs is anything new but perhaps there is more quantity of them today. There are lots of television channels with lots of hours to fill in programming.
2014 Apr 26
AA Gill actually had a good article about this in the Sunday Times a couple weeks back. Suggested the pendulum has swung back already in some larger cities. Businessmen have taken back the restaurant world from the hands of celebrity chefs like Ramsay, in exchange for treating their kitchen staff humanely. Turned out chefs didn't necessarily make great restauranteurs, usually taking the negative opinion of customers with them when they moved from the stove to front of house.
2014 Apr 26
I'd say I agree with 90% or more of what you've said - and well said it was.
Like Inkling I'm not sure I see the anti-customer attitude, but then again I don't get out much so maybe it is true :-)
Like Inkling I'm not sure I see the anti-customer attitude, but then again I don't get out much so maybe it is true :-)
2014 Apr 26
Well said. I agree with you.
I would second you on the anti-customer trend in what I would perhaps call "privilege of eating here" attitude. Some of the hipper place seem to not care about customers because their product is so much in demand, why care about customer service. I have stopped going to those places. I can choose where to spend my money and there are alternatives to be found - after some digging or going across the river (or Montreal! ;) ).
I think an underlying factor is lack of competition. Despite the significant increase in variety and offer in Ottawa over the last ten years, the market is still far from truly competitive thus some with a good product can afford to not be customer loving.
I would second you on the anti-customer trend in what I would perhaps call "privilege of eating here" attitude. Some of the hipper place seem to not care about customers because their product is so much in demand, why care about customer service. I have stopped going to those places. I can choose where to spend my money and there are alternatives to be found - after some digging or going across the river (or Montreal! ;) ).
I think an underlying factor is lack of competition. Despite the significant increase in variety and offer in Ottawa over the last ten years, the market is still far from truly competitive thus some with a good product can afford to not be customer loving.
2014 Apr 27
El Camino…
The reason they felt it necessary to post such a sign is due to the overwhelming demand for their (limited) tables.
The tables are assigned on a first come basis, and patrons can leave their name for the next available spot. The staff is kind enough to send a text when the table is ready. They generally wait 10 minutes or so before texting the next group on the list if there is no response.
Which mean a table can sit idle for HOURS before someone responds to a text! I have waited and watched multiple tables sit empty while texts are made and ignored and patrons stand by feeling frustrated. The solution is to simply start taking reservations.
This restaurant is a victim of its own success, and I myself have been a "dick" towards front of house staff when I am told there is an hour wait and can see empty tables. Friday at 7:30 I was told the wait was 3 hours…
The reason they felt it necessary to post such a sign is due to the overwhelming demand for their (limited) tables.
The tables are assigned on a first come basis, and patrons can leave their name for the next available spot. The staff is kind enough to send a text when the table is ready. They generally wait 10 minutes or so before texting the next group on the list if there is no response.
Which mean a table can sit idle for HOURS before someone responds to a text! I have waited and watched multiple tables sit empty while texts are made and ignored and patrons stand by feeling frustrated. The solution is to simply start taking reservations.
This restaurant is a victim of its own success, and I myself have been a "dick" towards front of house staff when I am told there is an hour wait and can see empty tables. Friday at 7:30 I was told the wait was 3 hours…
2014 Apr 27
I agree with FF & to me it's a shame that somehow the person who's willing to spend their hard earned cash in your establishment is treated with such disrespect
in a few venues; fortunately it's not the norm...
I don't agree with 'bitching about the patrons'. It boggles my mind when I see restauranteurs on social media whining about what a customer said or did like in some cases simply requested a small change to a menu item, maybe I'm getting old but to me customer is King...It's unfortunate but we all focus on the negative & it's no different for servers, you can have a great night & 1 person that was difficult will absolutely ruin your evening; I really try & address this issue with my servers immediately, why are you letting 1 person get to you? Just smile & kill them with kindness, just try to focus on the majority of great people you served tonight...
I guess we're really lucky because we have an amazing clientele, from babies to the elderly & we appreciate everyone that wants patronize our little shop, after all you have a choice & if we do our jobs right, that choice can be us..
Terry
in a few venues; fortunately it's not the norm...
I don't agree with 'bitching about the patrons'. It boggles my mind when I see restauranteurs on social media whining about what a customer said or did like in some cases simply requested a small change to a menu item, maybe I'm getting old but to me customer is King...It's unfortunate but we all focus on the negative & it's no different for servers, you can have a great night & 1 person that was difficult will absolutely ruin your evening; I really try & address this issue with my servers immediately, why are you letting 1 person get to you? Just smile & kill them with kindness, just try to focus on the majority of great people you served tonight...
I guess we're really lucky because we have an amazing clientele, from babies to the elderly & we appreciate everyone that wants patronize our little shop, after all you have a choice & if we do our jobs right, that choice can be us..
Terry
2014 Apr 28
The places where I experience anti-customer are often places I would not go back anyway.
The best spots are where I, and my server, etc., are having a fun time, enjoying and offering constructive comments as well.
Just one of the many reasons why I would rather wait and go to places like Atelier, Play (I could go on). I've been lucky in most of the spots I've gone to :)
Sure, my business side thinks the customer is always right; but my kind side always ends up getting me a more enjoyable time!
As for "don't be a dick, well, far too many people ARE! Try to be on time or call if you can't make it!
The best spots are where I, and my server, etc., are having a fun time, enjoying and offering constructive comments as well.
Just one of the many reasons why I would rather wait and go to places like Atelier, Play (I could go on). I've been lucky in most of the spots I've gone to :)
Sure, my business side thinks the customer is always right; but my kind side always ends up getting me a more enjoyable time!
As for "don't be a dick, well, far too many people ARE! Try to be on time or call if you can't make it!
2014 Apr 28
I think what El Camino is doing is just them being light hearted, I wouldn't take offence to it..
I can't think of a place that I've gone to where I'm not treated with respect & usually if not always I have a good repor with the server & if I don't feel welcome, why on earth would I go back?
I think those places you speak of are far & few between in Ottawa, all the newer & the more established spots seem to embrace the idea of good service, it's good for the customer, it's good for the business & it's good for the server..
I can't think of a place that I've gone to where I'm not treated with respect & usually if not always I have a good repor with the server & if I don't feel welcome, why on earth would I go back?
I think those places you speak of are far & few between in Ottawa, all the newer & the more established spots seem to embrace the idea of good service, it's good for the customer, it's good for the business & it's good for the server..
2014 Apr 28
The bottom line, in my never so humble opinion, is that people have a choice - eat there (wherever), or don't. Don't want to wait in line? Don't eat there. Don't want to look at empty tables while you're waiting? Don't eat there. Chef's attitude puts you off? Vaya con dios... the glory and horror that is Seinfeld's Soup Nazi is exactly that people were willing to suffer the line, the rules, the abuse... to get their faces into that soup. Their choice. I enjoy the ribfucks out of Ribfeste and will cheerfully wait in line for silly amounts of time to get my soon to be greasy hands on a solid rack of porcine goodness... and massive sweaty globs of humanity feel the same way, hence the lines. Poutinefeste? Not so much, tnx, i see those trucks every day. As for farmers' markets, i don't go to farmers' markets to buy the same crap i can get at Loblaws, and i'll cheerfully pay more for better/different.
It is absolutely true that the industry is getting a closer eyeball and level of celebrity thanks to the food networks and the intenutz, but hell, why not? I'm way more impressed with someone who can blow my mind with something yummy to eat that pretty much everyone on The Bachelor/ette (all versions), Big Brother (all versions, everywhere, since the damn of time and forward into the future) and Idol (retch). And that may mean i'll wait a little longer in line to get at a restaurant featuring a celebrichef, but that doesn't mean i must go back if they disappoint. Ask Gordon Ramsey how his restaurants are doing lately...
My point being i don't think any level of raised profile anywhere in the industry is going to overcome the basic equation of customer + happy = money.
Yes, customers may go somewhere for a 'scene', yes, some places get by on mediocre food and short skirts, but hey, i don't have to eat there.
So TL;DR version: no flash-point, just TV and social media doing what it does. Customer still gets the last word.
It is absolutely true that the industry is getting a closer eyeball and level of celebrity thanks to the food networks and the intenutz, but hell, why not? I'm way more impressed with someone who can blow my mind with something yummy to eat that pretty much everyone on The Bachelor/ette (all versions), Big Brother (all versions, everywhere, since the damn of time and forward into the future) and Idol (retch). And that may mean i'll wait a little longer in line to get at a restaurant featuring a celebrichef, but that doesn't mean i must go back if they disappoint. Ask Gordon Ramsey how his restaurants are doing lately...
My point being i don't think any level of raised profile anywhere in the industry is going to overcome the basic equation of customer + happy = money.
Yes, customers may go somewhere for a 'scene', yes, some places get by on mediocre food and short skirts, but hey, i don't have to eat there.
So TL;DR version: no flash-point, just TV and social media doing what it does. Customer still gets the last word.
2014 Apr 29
I agree with some aspects of the premise but I would suggest that we are in the long tail part of the NA food culture – North America has had an explosion of interest by first adopters over the last decade or so, creative types filled the initial desire and drove the trends, general population slowly got on board, and the market in it’s very effective capitalist way rushed to fill the explosion of demand.
Now, we are in the part of the narrative where you actually have to be discerning in your choices because there is a lot of mediocre BBQ, raw bar, small plates, tacos, food trucks, soul food, organic/artisanal, whatever was trendy two years ago out there. Mark my words, ramen is next for us.
I do however disagree with the idea the foodies are being “exploited” in any way. Rather, as I see it many suckers with more dollars than culture/taste/knowledge who can’t boil water at home have been to all the trendy restaurants (regardless of whether they are any good) as soon as they can. These kind of people are always going to be easily separated from their money because they are not exactly thinking for themselves but slavishly adhering to herd mentality and the two to three year old trends that have percolated up to Ottawa from Vancouver, London, NYC, wherever.
Same with farmer’s markets or festivals – if you just blindly fork over your money without asking or thinking critically, you are probably going to get scammed. But if you are armed with a bit of knowledge and buy from an actual farm stand in season you will make out great from both a financial and quality perspective.
I should preface all of this with the information that I am one of these crazy, controversial people who believe there is objective truth in matters of taste – so as always take everything I write with a grain of salt. Of my many opinions, this one is often the most inflammatory.
Regardless, this explosion (and oversaturation to a degree) has been undeniably a good thing for a city like ours. Great food is still great regardless of it is on trend or not, and we have had a lot of great developments in the last 5+ years. Better restos and more interesting bars, clearly identified farmer’s markets, better craftspeople and artisans making great products, more selection and choice in shops, amazing hyper-local beers, I could go on. But, like anything, I’d estimate that 15-25% of the new developments are genuinely good, and for every El Camino, Beyond the Pale or Smoque Shaque, there are 5-10 trendy frauds.
Finally, and perhaps more on topic, I have to say that although there should never be a too-cool-for-school attitude given off from anyone in a service industry (even if you have got more business than you know what to do with), I am completely fine with, and in fact actually admire, a resto that doesn’t kowtow to culinary bugaboos and vaguely defined food preferences. From my view when you try to be something for everyone you end up being not much for anyone. Trite and certainly not profound, but in my view a reliable indicator nonetheless.
Now, we are in the part of the narrative where you actually have to be discerning in your choices because there is a lot of mediocre BBQ, raw bar, small plates, tacos, food trucks, soul food, organic/artisanal, whatever was trendy two years ago out there. Mark my words, ramen is next for us.
I do however disagree with the idea the foodies are being “exploited” in any way. Rather, as I see it many suckers with more dollars than culture/taste/knowledge who can’t boil water at home have been to all the trendy restaurants (regardless of whether they are any good) as soon as they can. These kind of people are always going to be easily separated from their money because they are not exactly thinking for themselves but slavishly adhering to herd mentality and the two to three year old trends that have percolated up to Ottawa from Vancouver, London, NYC, wherever.
Same with farmer’s markets or festivals – if you just blindly fork over your money without asking or thinking critically, you are probably going to get scammed. But if you are armed with a bit of knowledge and buy from an actual farm stand in season you will make out great from both a financial and quality perspective.
I should preface all of this with the information that I am one of these crazy, controversial people who believe there is objective truth in matters of taste – so as always take everything I write with a grain of salt. Of my many opinions, this one is often the most inflammatory.
Regardless, this explosion (and oversaturation to a degree) has been undeniably a good thing for a city like ours. Great food is still great regardless of it is on trend or not, and we have had a lot of great developments in the last 5+ years. Better restos and more interesting bars, clearly identified farmer’s markets, better craftspeople and artisans making great products, more selection and choice in shops, amazing hyper-local beers, I could go on. But, like anything, I’d estimate that 15-25% of the new developments are genuinely good, and for every El Camino, Beyond the Pale or Smoque Shaque, there are 5-10 trendy frauds.
Finally, and perhaps more on topic, I have to say that although there should never be a too-cool-for-school attitude given off from anyone in a service industry (even if you have got more business than you know what to do with), I am completely fine with, and in fact actually admire, a resto that doesn’t kowtow to culinary bugaboos and vaguely defined food preferences. From my view when you try to be something for everyone you end up being not much for anyone. Trite and certainly not profound, but in my view a reliable indicator nonetheless.
2014 Apr 30
"I am completely fine with, and in fact actually admire, a resto that doesn’t kowtow to culinary bugaboos and vaguely defined food preferences. From my view when you try to be something for everyone you end up being not much for anyone."
Well said! Bravo!
Sadly though, for some this means eventual closure due to lack of business. This is one of the reasons that one cannot find a properly spiced General Tao anymore :(
Especially in a city such as Ottawa....
Well said! Bravo!
Sadly though, for some this means eventual closure due to lack of business. This is one of the reasons that one cannot find a properly spiced General Tao anymore :(
Especially in a city such as Ottawa....
2014 Apr 30
Here's a message that I saw on the menu of a very high end restaurant in another city. I don't remember the exact wording but it went something like this:
'If the food in our restaurant isn't prepared quickly enough for you, we can suggest some other places for you to eat.'
Snarky? Snooty? Bitchy?
'If the food in our restaurant isn't prepared quickly enough for you, we can suggest some other places for you to eat.'
Snarky? Snooty? Bitchy?
2014 May 6
@schnicken
"This is one of the reasons that one cannot find a properly spiced General Tao anymore :( "
Two words for you - Royal Treasures
On the topic of waiting and being snarky - I've only been to El Camino once, but I've never eaten there. We waited 45 minutes on a Thursday night for a table for two while 6 tables sat empty. For 45 minutes. When we asked about getting take out we were told it would be 30 minutes to get our order. For tacos. 30 minutes for something somebody's grandma with a food truck in California can make in 5 minutes and probably tastes way better than El Camino's do. Unless they figure out that they are running a business and people are taking advantage of their idiotic policy to hold tables and text people who clearly don't appreciate other people...I'm not going back.
The well is going to run dry one day, people will only accept their stupid policies for so long and by the time the damn breaks they'll wonder where all the customers have gone...and the people they were texting will have moved on to the next hipster thing.
"This is one of the reasons that one cannot find a properly spiced General Tao anymore :( "
Two words for you - Royal Treasures
On the topic of waiting and being snarky - I've only been to El Camino once, but I've never eaten there. We waited 45 minutes on a Thursday night for a table for two while 6 tables sat empty. For 45 minutes. When we asked about getting take out we were told it would be 30 minutes to get our order. For tacos. 30 minutes for something somebody's grandma with a food truck in California can make in 5 minutes and probably tastes way better than El Camino's do. Unless they figure out that they are running a business and people are taking advantage of their idiotic policy to hold tables and text people who clearly don't appreciate other people...I'm not going back.
The well is going to run dry one day, people will only accept their stupid policies for so long and by the time the damn breaks they'll wonder where all the customers have gone...and the people they were texting will have moved on to the next hipster thing.
2014 May 6
I find 30min for El Camino takeaway surprising. I've done it about six times now, and even when they're busy i've never waited more than 15.
The empty table thing... is that really any different from arriving at a restaurant at 8 and being told tables aren't available because of a 9pm rez?
The empty table thing... is that really any different from arriving at a restaurant at 8 and being told tables aren't available because of a 9pm rez?
warby
* Chefs are treated as celebrities or "foodie stars"
* Some restaurant owners/workers have an anti-customer attitude
* Food events and festivals are well attended by starry eyed enthusiasts who stand in line for hours
The vast majority of chefs and restaurant owners really just want to produce great food and have a thriving business. The celebrity chef phenomenon is an inevitable result of food television.
The anti-customer attitude was popularized by Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" and has been institutionalized more recently by those in the service industry who turn to Twitter and other social media to rant about customers. I really can't blame them of course. I wouldn't last a day serving entitled customers who complain a lot, yet I feel that this shift in customer service is starting to have an effect. Too bad if the chairs are uncomfortable -- the lineup out the door says it's *your* privilege to be in my restaurant.
I sense an approaching conflict of some kind. In the same way that chefs and restaurant owners are lashing out at unfair online reviews, poor food photography, and difficult customers, foodies are starting to lash out at restaurants that treat them like privileged cattle and event organizers who take advantage of their enthusiasm. (See pretty much any Ottawa food festival, and most recently Forum - Cobra Club.)
I'm not personally in the habit of attending food festivals because when I do, I come away feeling duped. I stood in line at last November's Poutine Fest for quite a while before I gave up and left. I don't understand the attraction of lining up for a product that you could get in five minutes on any other day (e.g. Poutine Fest), and I don't understand the attraction of lining up for a product that you can't get any other day (e.g. Rib Fest). What I love to find are great sources of food that I can purchase on my own schedule.
Even the farmer's markets make me feel like I'm being scammed, because the prices are so much higher than what I pay at the grocery store. It's hard not to think that foodies are being taken advantage of.
Obviously, I'm a huge fan of great food. I appreciate the incredible skill required to consistently make excellent food, and I deeply respect business owners who are successful because of the quality of their product. I am more than happy to pay for good value, but I don't like being taken for a ride.
I expect the pendulum will start to swing the other way at some point. But first, there may be increased animosity between some chefs and some customers. In business, money always talks loudest, so it's likely the customers as a whole will get their way in the end. Whatever that happens to be!
I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this.
(Obligatory pun: "Chef! Chef! The foodies are revolting!" ... "Yes, they always have been.")