Buying locally [General]

2013 Jan 13
Just thought I'd start a new thread about this ... will fill in more of my thoughts later but others can have at it in the meantime.

Right now, supper is called. Meatballs and rice - yum!

2013 Jan 13
What??? No local veggies?

2013 Jan 14
Wow, people are thumbing this down before I've even said anything - what's up with that? Lots of haters out there. I guess if you didn't like that, you really aren't going to like this. Oh well, haters will hate.

I know that cross border shopping is all the rage these days, but I hope people consider the full implications of their actions, including most importantly for themselves (since selfishness seems to be the prime motivator) making sure to claim everything at the border and pay the fair taxes and duties on it. Recently I was coming back across the border with my 2 boys and got to witness 2 women getting reamed by CBSA for not claiming everything. They got searched, and got caught. And were not too happy about it and were about to get dragged through their worst nightmare - that was very clear to me. One of them was sobbing and crying, and the other was doing the unthinkable - cursing and swearing at the border guards, as though it were somehow their fault.

I took the opportunity to school my boys on the importance of being honest, and I made sure to do so loud enough so the women could hear me. I explained everything to them, how the women were lying and now had to face the consequences of their own actions. It was all-round a great experience for me - i.e. great opportunity to teach my kids an important lesson. Not so much for those women and I'm sure I didn't see the least of it. I have zero mercy for them or anyone caught in a similar situation.

I know it may seem as though Canadian retailers are reaming you on some items, but in most cases that is probably not the case. There are 2 major reasons why some prices are higher in Canada : (1) Canadian retailers have an extra middleman to deal with and often no options to avoid it, and (2) Canadian prices reflect the costs of our social services. Those services we value so dearly which set us apart from USAmericans cost money, and that money comes from taxes. We also pay higher wages so that people can live a better quality life. Google tells me that min wage in NY State is between $5.50 and $7.25. Here in Ontario is is over $10. With the currencies at par these days that's a pretty good apples to apples comparison.

And I felt this way long before I was a retailer myself. And when we started our coffee company one of our founding principles was that we would not do mail order, because we believe firmly that people should be dealing with local retailers. And we've turned down a lot of potential mail order business, too. We tell people to find a local roaster in their area, and if they are unable to do so we'll help them start up their own roastery if they want. So far we've helped 4 or 5 other startups in that manner. There is enough business to go around and we all benefit from cooperation.

I grew up with these values instilled in me and I will hopefully be able to pass them on to my kids. There are no free rides in life. I know an awful lot of people want to cheat the system, but you only end up cheating yourself. Cross border shopping sucks the life out of communities and out of our social programs. Period. Yup, I know lots of people do it to save a few bucks, but it is a downward spiral that sucks others into it. A race to the bottom. As far as I'm concerned the Americans have already won the Capitalist Race to the Bottom, and they can have it. Their society is teetering on the verge of systemic collapse right now, and if people would think a little beyond the immediate personal monetary benefit I think they would agree that the last thing we in Canada need is to be sucked down into that hole as well. I honestly don't want to have any part of it and don't want to contribute to dragging this province and country into that spiral. If saving $10 on something is that important to someone, fine. We all get to make our own decisions, as short-sighted as they may be. Just remember that when it comes time to pay the piper and your mother or daughter or brother has cancer and there is a long waiting list because the health care dollars just aren't there. Yes, I do view it as that simple. If someone values the things we have in this country which they do not have south of the border, they should think very hard about this issue.

When I bought my All American Canner I could have saved a couple of hundred bucks buying it on Amazon. But I bit the bullet and bought it at Preston Hardware, because that money stays in the community, and those people give to the community. They are the people who volunteer for kids sports teams, local charities, and so on. I believe in doing my part to stop the downward spiral we are in. Sure, I know it is difficult to be altruistic because there is significant money to be saved in some cases, and when you are already stuck in that spiral as so many people are, every dollar counts. And it is easy to justify by telling yourself that Canadian retailers are just screwing you anyway. But as I've already stated, that is definitely not the case. Contributing to it, only makes it worse.

Here's another one I heard recently from a friend who works in a retail shop. The products they sell there are highly specialized and the buyer really benefits from the personal experiences and advice of the retail staff. It is so much easier to use the product when you have access to those people directly. A woman walks in and takes up 45 minutes of staff time asking all sorts of questions about why they would choose product A over product B, how to use it and so on, and when all is done they don't even wait to exit the store to do this they immediately call their husband on their cell phone and tell him which ones to order online. Unbelievable! There is a special place in hell for that woman and anyone like her. If that were my shop and I bore witness to that, she'd have gotten a very good piece of my mind.

All that said - I have some very good friends who do a lot of cross border shopping, and I don't really think any less of them for it other than that I believe they are short-sighted. People get to make their own decisions. However, I'll be all too happy to say "I told you so" when they get caught short on a social service they hold dearly. In the mean time I hope their short-sightedness does not have a negative impact on me and mine.

2013 Jan 14
I've only read the first sentence of your long post - I thumbed-down your first post for the exact reason you say: you didn't say anything. All I read was a placeholder. No hate or anything, just thought it was bad etiquette. Or is it called netiquette?

Now I shall read the rest of your post.

2013 Jan 14
It was a placeholder just to divert traffic from the other thread - I didn't have time at that moment to write anything substantial though. Sorry.

2013 Jan 14
How the heck do you come up with:

"2) Canadian prices reflect the costs of our social services."

I buy auto parts in the US that are 25 - 50% cheaper in the US when I factor in my time, gas, toll and same taxes I need to pay on it by getting it in Ogdensburg!>

2013 Jan 14
Higher taxes. Higher wages. Very simple.

2013 Jan 14
BTW one place we do tend to get reamed is on shipping charges, and I'm not sure whether that is us getting reamed, or whether US shipping gets somehow subsidized by the government. Or maybe just their 9x population creates lower shipping costs.

I do know this is a key reason why I go get my own coffee at the border - because once that truck crosses the border the price jumps significantly even though we are just barely on the other side.

2013 Jan 14
I get what you're saying, Zym, but I have to point out that my first responsibility is to my own pocketbook. I have no problem with the amount of taxes we pay over here - my problem is that so much of that tax money is wasted.

We try to be smart in our cross-border shopping. NOT everything is cheaper! For instance, we were looking at canned mushrooms yesterday while grocery shopping in Potsdam, NY. And we found that the price per can was actually higher than in Canada.

Meat is almost always cheaper, if you watch the sales. Gas is cheaper too, even more so if you have the Price Chopper card and get a further discount at Sunoco. Produce is rarely a good deal. Eggs sometimes are. Dry goods / processed foods often are (like cereal, crackers, etc). Services, gas, etc are almost always cheaper.

I would *love* to buy local, support the little guy, etc. But my responsibility has to be to my own pocketbook first, to make sure I can feed my family, pay our bills, etc. If I can do both, bonus. But that's where my priorities have to be.

2013 Jan 14
"Meat is almost always cheaper"

... if you don't mind the growth hormones

2013 Jan 14
I wish I could afford to buy locally raised hormone free meat, I do. But my budget doesn't allow for it right now. Maybe in a few years. We're focusing right now on not-as-processed foods. I tried primal, and couldn't stick with it. Low carb is too expensive right now too. The moment I can *afford* the local well-made stuff, I'll get it. But right now I can't.

2013 Jan 14
All meat raised in Canada is hormone free - growth hormones are not allowed here. They are commonplace in the US

2013 Jan 14
Based on your arguments above, I'd argue that the extra couple hundred dollars you spent at Preston Hardware were wasted. If the money goes to the middleman and taxes, it means the retailer isn't taking a larger markup on the product. This means they don't see a higher percentage of the extra money you spent. It also means you're out a couple hundred bucks which could actually stay in the community and stimulate other business which you definitely do care about (and rightly so).

If Preston Hardware isn't getting the extra $200, why spend the money there when you can get it across the border, avoid middleman, pay duty and taxes, and still have money leftover which you can spend locally in any way you like?

The reasoning just doesn't make sense to me.

And I whole-heartedly disagree with how the "teaching moment" with the women at the border went down but that's your parenting style and none of my concern. (You did make it public so my comment isn't all that out of order though, if at all)


2013 Jan 14
Well your logic doesn't make sense to me either. It is very simple : money goes to local retailer versus one far away. Sure I get to keep extra like you side, but people who cross border shop - the hardcore ones - tend to maximize what they buy over there so the leftover money is more likely to go over the border too.

And you are welcome to disagree on my parenting since I did make it public.

2013 Jan 14
In your example above, when you bought the equipment at Preston Hardware, where did the extra money paid for the item go / end up? (compared to the cross-border price)

2013 Jan 14
I have no data to support this, but it's plausible / possible that people who save their money shopping cross-border could spend more locally on culture, real estate, travel, charity, education - anything with a price tag. Or they could be frugal and save themselves more debt. Or save for retirement. Anything is possible.

2013 Jan 14
Zym

There is absolutely no correlation between income and taxes.

siteresources.worldbank.org

Where do you get these beliefs?

K,

2013 Jan 14
So are you guys suggesting that Canadian retailers are in the habit of reaming their customers moreso than US ones? ( higher markup? )

Do you think if everyone bought everything in the US our economy and society would be OK?

2013 Jan 14
FWIW, w/re to Canadian vs US pricing, Canadian retailers often are unable to set their own pricing. Many manufacturers have a minimum pricing below which you are not allowed to sell their product. Often the American regular pricing is a fair bit lower than this. It's even worse right now, with our dollars so close in value, as it means that it is dramatically cheaper to buy many things south of the border.

As far as paying the higher prices here: They're higher because retailers need to cover more costs (wages, taxes, etc) than in the US. Also, note the difference in wages that Zym referenced above.

My primary reason for supporting local business as much as I can, though, is simply because I feel retail diversity is important. Who do you think keeps all these specialty shops in business? Customers. If there are no customers, we lose those shops and the jobs that they create..

2013 Jan 14
I don't know where the extra money is going. I doubt retailers of similar stores in Canada have higher in-store markups ("reaming their customers more") than in the States unless they operate in a super lucrative market. Online negates all that.

There are many factors at work when two identical products have very different prices - trade tariffs, licensing, distribution rules, regulatory permissions, import / export laws, shipping, minimum prices, taxes, duties etc. None of these factors would seem to help the local retailer selling the product though. So why would you pay a premium for a product through a local store when you can get the same product for cheaper an hour down the road?

One reason you mentioned is the community-minded issue - "They are the people who volunteer for kids sports teams, local charities, and so on." Nothing against Preston Hardware, but they are not distributing "a couple hundred" dollars from that equipment you bought to those local sports teams etc. They are paying overheads after taking a slim markup. Sure, the aggregate of all those slim markups pays for things, but if your bottom line is spending money in a local community to benefit the local community, wouldn't having that extra $200 in your pocket to distribute as you see fit (sports teams, culture, local coffee, farmers, charity, take the wife out for dinner, etc) go a lot further? The manufacturer of the equipment you bought is getting the lion's share of the money and it's not coming to Ottawa. So why not buy the thing you want at a considerable discount and spread the considerable savings around to other worthy local business you care about?

Would you like to have the item? Or the item PLUS $200 to distribute how you see fit?

If everything was bought in the US that would be a problem yes. But we are so far from a tipping point that to suggest things are dire and spiralling because people are crossing the border is not right. Besides, businesses must adapt to changing markets and buying habits if they are to survive.

2013 Jan 14
My point of the volunteers is that people need well paying jobs to be secure enough to feel like they have free time to volunteer. Take me for example. I volunteer on average about 3 hours a week to a well known youth program, plus 3 weekends a year, plus 3 vacation days, plus a few hundred bucks out of pocket. No problem. Did that long before becoming a retailer and expect nothing back in return other than being able to have a positive influence on a kid's life and maybe have one of them 10 years down the road tell me that.

In this particular volunteer position I need my car otherwise I can't do it. You can donate all the money you want to the organization, but it won't help one bit where the rubber hits the road. If there aren't adults willing to volunteer that money does nothing. If I lost my job I'd eventually lose my car and very likely lose my interest in volunteering because I'd be more occupied with looking for work and caring for my family.

Quote : "If everything was bought in the US that would be a problem yes"

So it is OK for you to do, just not for everyone else? Isn't that a classic double standard?

2013 Jan 14
BTW I'm also all for being forced to be competitive - as long as there is a level playing field. If however there are conditions being forced upon Canadian retailers that are not being forced upon US retailers, then we have a serious problem. And the sort of which can only be sorted out by serious government intervention - for starters a Senate Sub Committee to study the matter. I've thought that for long before I became a retailer, and after seeing what I see as a retailer I think it even more - someone has to take a very serious look at all the reasons why things are more expensive here. In a very methodical and serious fashion. And if there is an uneven playing field afoot (which I strongly suspect there is), then it needs to be legislated even.

2013 Jan 14
"So it is OK for you to do, just not for everyone else? Isn't that a classic double standard?"

I'm saying its fine for whoever wants to do it. I'm saying it would have been fine for you in the specific case we were discussing since you would have had extra money to spend locally which you stated is of the utmost importance to you. Not everyone has the means / time / patience / proximity / identification / legal status / cash to make cross-border runs - that's why it's ok for some people to do it, because never will everyone do it. No double standard applies.

Not sure how you are coming to conclusions on my buying habits as I've not disclosed them here. But I will now share that I don't have the time, money or patience to shop in the States unless I'm already there for a reason.

2013 Jan 14
Speaking as a cross border shopper,
I ALWAYS am honest about what I purchase. In the last 5 years I have not been charged duty on anything, and have been only charged taxes occasionally. I believe the agents have a lot of discretion, and for the most part they are looking for guns, cigarettes, liquor, firewood etc. I am slmost never charged anything for groceries, even $200 to $300 worth on a same day return. This is not what the law allows, but it has been my experience that most agents won't bother you for groceries.

The allowable duty free claims have increased substantially lately, so by spending a couple of days over there you can each bring back something like $800 duty free.

Do not ever try to sneak anything across no matter how small, and especially not liquor. The lecture you will get about how they have the right to impound your vehicle is not worth it. Plus you'll be flagged and will have more thorough inspections at the border for a while.

We have a trailer that we bring back and forth and they have even looked under the furniture and searched out half bottles of liquor to determine their country of origin.

In September I bought tires. Same tires here (goodyear) were over $1200 and I paid $620 US including installation and all recycling charges. I don't know that had I bought them locally the extra $600 here was due to higher taxes and social costs.

A small grocery example - Klondike bars at the price chopper are about 2.49 a package, but they are wrapped in bundles of 8 in clear cellophane. A package of only 6 was 7.99 at Loblaws. The extra cost is ridiculous, and I believe partly because of the wasteful full color cardboard luxury packaging on the Canadian examples, and I'm sure they are taking significantly more profit.

I spend lots of money on local food and drink, both at restaurants and with smaller providers. I do pay premium prices in Ottawa for quality product, but I don't feel that paging 200% more for commercial products that aren't produced locally, and probably not even in Canada, is something I want to do, especially when I am working and traveling in the US so frequently.

I will pay over $100 for a turkey raised locally, but don't ask me to cough up $40 for a commercial brand of ham when I can find the same brand stateside for 12 bucks.

2013 Jan 14
Agreed about the need for a serious study (with recommendations and consequences) about pricing etc. Long overdue.

I also think the leap from spending money locally to volunteering to the collapse of civilization is weak at best.

2013 Jan 14
I'm all for cross-border shopping - I do it myself and I run two local businesses.

There is no way local businesses have higher margins than our neighbours to the south. IMHO, distributors in Canada are making the majority of the money when it comes to the imbalance, but they do have additional costs that Zym has pointed out. (Example: Look at Lodge cast iron products on Amazon.com/Walmart.com, etc. vs a Canadian retailer. A $15 pan is the USA is $45 here. How is that possible? Try getting Lodge to ship to a Canadian dealer - can't do it. We have to buy from their Canadian supplier who provides us with a cost of $22 for a $15 USD RETAIL product. Errr.)

The more that Canadians shop in the USA and complain about pricing at home, the more that manufacturers will begin to change their Canadian pricing structure.

Zym - I can appreciate your view, but honestly, there is no point in trying to argue with people when it comes to price. MOST people only care about the $$ they are saving - literally even a couple of dollars.

2013 Jan 15
To me it's simple home economics.

The less I give away needlessly, the more disposable income my family/home has ..... For things like an RESP where I can get government matching funds for my kids post secondary education.

My pockets are not deep enough to give away family money willy-nilly based on 'noble principles'.

Hasn't retailing changed a lot since the Web?

The day of the Mom and Pop retail store is over for many reasons. Another piece of nostalgia that some people can't (or won't) let go of. Mom and Pop operations now tend to be boutiques offering specialty products (e.g. gourmet coffee) and those offering lots of value-added (e.g. freshly roasted and blended coffee beans).

The redistribution of wealth, in a capitalist system, is the role of the government and not my family directly .... so I faithfully and un-begrudgingly pay all my taxes at the city, provincial, and federal level.

2013 Jan 15
Sorry Captain, but mom and pop is far from over. Small business is the backbone of the economy

www.theglobeandmail.com

2013 Jan 15
Let me make my points a little more clear.

"Hasn't retailing changed a lot since the Web?"

"The day of the Mom and Pop retail store is over for many reasons."

So I am suggesting and (questioning) that Old Fashioned Mom and Pop retailing has changed.

"The day of the (and I should have inserted: TYPICAL or OLD STYLE) Mom and Pop retail store is over for many reasons."

As for the article ... It does not mention Mom and Pop retailing.

But it does mention some of the points I am making.

"These companies must find value-added, skill-based Canadian products and services that can plug into global supply chains or take advantage of niche market opportunities in new markets, he added."

And in your business your value-added is to "... roast your beans to order and aim to have them in your hands within 24-48hrs after roasting" and your niche market (or boutique market) is " ... high quality Fair Trade, Organic and Farm Gate coffee at reasonable prices."

You have the Modern Mom and Pop Operation ! Congrats !

If you had a old fashioned coffee retailing operation, you would be trying to sell pre-roasted pre-ground and prepacked Maxwell House and Nabob Coffees.

AND

Your pockets must be much deeper (or your priorities quite different) than mine to afford giving away $200 for 'noble purposes' at Preston Hardware and not spending it on your family.


2013 Jan 15
The way I looked at the canner was that it will last me a lifetime. Amortize the $200 over that timeframe and it zeros out pretty quickly. I am by no means rich or even close to it, though I did have a higher income when I bought the canner. But even today I like to think that money is not my first priority.

I think I explained it pretty well in the article I wrote on becoming a butcher (sniff)

www.urbanhippy.ca

2013 Jan 15
BTW I also happen to believe that the globalization trend is reversing and mom and pop is coming back. People are beginning to see that the big lie of globalization did not do them any good at all as the average Jane and Joe, and only brought benefit to the upper few percent. For the last 15 years or so we all stood by and cheered as the upper few percent shipped all the good jobs overseas, and now people are finally beginning to see that they've been left holding the bag. So they are doing something about it by voting with their dollars.

2013 Jan 15
When I first saw this thread, I thought it as going to be some kind of continuation of where to source local food. It seems to be a bit more than that! It’s certainly given me plenty of food for thought. After reading all the posts, I’m not sure where I stand now, some very interesting ideas have been put forward here.

For the most part, I’m not one to cross border shop, for legal reasons (they won’t have me), because I’ve always liked the idea of my money staying in the country or the community, and because I just can’t bear the idea of traveling that far and going through customs to shop. From what some have said here, I probably won’t give as much grief to my cross-border shopping friends now... Or maybe I will?

I personally feel better when I spend my money locally. That is just as valid a reason as shopping somewhere to save money. If I can’t afford it, I either don’t buy it, or I save up for it. When I need to buy something I can’t make or grow myself, I find the best deal locally. The best deal may not be the lowest price (sometimes it is though), and ‘local’ may end up something that’s Canadian, rather than an import.

I’m also a big fan of the ‘vote with your dollar’ line of thought. It comes up all the time when a vegan is berating me for raising or eating meat. Yes, we can all stop eating meat, or we can support ethical meat sources with our spending dollar where possible. I tend to prefer to patronize the small locally owned stores with my few spending dollars, and if they don’t have what I’m looking for, then I will try a bigger chain (like Our Green Shelf rather than Loblaws, or Canadian Tire rather than a Wal-Mart, or HomeHardware rather than a HomeDepot.) I tend to be one of those people who makes a bunch of quick calls before I head to town so I know where I need to stop. Saves me time and gas.

I also know that I get far better service from the local shops and Canadian businesses than I do from the big chains. Last year, I decided to save up and buy a cream separator. I did my research, they were all made in India, or made in India and assembled in eastern Europe or the USA. I could buy one online with a well known Canadian owned and operated company, or I could save about $300 - $500 if I bought one on-line direct from India. I decided (having read that cream separators can be tricky to work with) to go with the Canadian company. I spent more, but when the machine arrived and it became clear after many calls with customer service trying to fix the problem, and after blowing a weeks worth of milk that it would only be useful if I pasteurized the milk first, I was able to easily return it, and got my refund quickly. I dunno if it would have gone that way if I had ordered from some online faceless company, it was near impossible to get information from any of them about a return policy.

I also know that I can buy lots of stuff locally, and there is lots of stuff made locally, but there’s probably just as much stuff that isn’t. I can’t get locally produced or grown: coffee, automobiles, tools, oranges, paper, garbage bags, socks, bananas, nails, chocolate, or computers. Now, some of those things I like to buy weekly, some I may only buy once or twice in a lifetime.

Maybe that’s why I tend towards organic most times rather than local. If the item I need cannot be made or grown locally, I’m going to go with the ‘greenest’ version from some other country. Or, depending on what it is, and how tight the budget is I get the one that I can afford.

Taxes were mentioned a few times. I’ve always been of the mind that if the government took less of our money (taxes) to spend as they see fit, the public would have more in their pocket to spread around and help others. Maybe the government thinks we are all too greedy, and won’t share.

I’m also of the mind that while in some ways things seem to be getting bigger and more global, there is also a movement towards the ‘mom and pop’ type of thing.


2013 Jan 16
Zym,

I don't really go down to the US just to shop but have sometimes shopped while I am down in the US for work or for vacation. I don't usually buy things I can get in Canada unless there is a large price differential.

Similarly when I went to Paris in Oct, I brought back lots of foie gras, and pates (all commercially sealed) plus Valhona chocolates. The recent trip to UK and France I bought back lots of Leonidas chocolates at around C$18 for 500g. They are at least 2-3x the price here before adding on HST.

I think these are personal choices based on each person's circumstances and preferences. You should not rag others on it when you go and pick up coffee for your business down in the US which means you are making similar choices when it suits you.


2013 Jan 16
We buy coffee there because there is nowhere else to buy what we are looking for - which is another matter and is largely what you were talking about. It is completely understandable that if you need something and can't get it locally that you'd look elsewhere.

Our whole business model is dealing as directly with farmers as possible. To that end we have a guy in Bolivia with a warehouse in Boston, a guy in Colombia with a warehouse in Montreal, and a guy in Brazil with a warehouse in Oakville. So in fact 2/3 of our suppliers are warehoused in Canada but of course being coffee, none of it is produced here. The two suppliers we have in Canada are dealing directly with the farmers. The other supplier is the only middleman between us and farmers. If we could find more suppliers like that in Canada we'd use them.

2013 Jan 16
Hey FoodTravel - I recently purchased a pound of Valrhona chocolate for $9 at Grace in the Kitchen. Speaking of buying locally. :)

2013 Jan 16
Although new to commenting on this site, I have been following this thread with interest. I think the big thing that strikes me is how judgy the tone of this debate can be; I find it is much more useful to transmit your feelings and position on an issue if you aren't coming off as so judgemental in your approach. I think the opinions that everyone are proposing are of value because it is what works for them; they are trying to support the local economy while also being mindful of their pocketbooks.

My opinion on the matter is this: I support buying locally, at least as much as I can. My partner and I have cut down on our meat consumption in order to eat local (organic) meat, which we do about 1-2 times a week now. In the summer, the highlight of my weekend is visiting the local farmers market. The fruits and vegetables I buy there taste better and make me more excited in general about cooking and eating healthfully. I also try to do most of my shopping at stores in my area so I can give back to my community instead of big box stores. However, sometimes I have to make choices about what I buy. I can go to the Superstore and stock up on cereal that will last me a month for the same price it would cost me to buy one box of cereal at a smaller store. Even though I would love to support the small guy, my budget only stretches so far so I make the choices I can.

When it comes to making bigger purchases, I often shop online with US retailers; the cost savings I get far outweighs any advantages to shopping locally. In terms of buying stuff for my home, often the choice just isn't available to Canadian consumers like it is in the US. With our dollar so close to parity with the US, I choose to save my money on new jeans, or a new rug, so I can buy products that were actually produced in the area.

2013 Jan 16
Here's another person's opinion on the subject:
www.thestar.com

2013 Jan 17
The problem with your link is that poor people are not the ones cross border shopping. Of the half dozen or so hard core cross border shoppers I know off the top of my head, ever single one of them has a household income a lot bigger than mine. We still have a good distance to go to break 6 digits, just to give you an idea. Most of the hard core cross border shoppers I know are well into 6 digits. And of the friends I have who might actually qualify as 'poor', not a single one of them cross border shops mainly because they cannot afford a car.

In my experience the people doing the cross border shopping are very comfortably middle class, and in many cases upper middle class

2013 Jan 17
Curious as to what your half-dozen hardcore cross-border shopping friends think about this discussion. Have you brought it up with them?

2013 Jan 17
That's interesting, Zym. For me, it's opposite. The majority of the people I know that cross border shop are pretty close to what many would consider 'poor'. Huge families (4- 9 children in the household) and only one parent working, and making a yearly income in about the $20K range!

So, maybe the guesses about who shops where are more subjective or geographical? Or maybe I've never asked my 'well to do' friends (who generally live in the city not the country) if they shop state side.

I guess it's possible the only ones that mention it are the ones that do it, and those ones all happen to be low income.

As well, most of the high income earning people I know in the country have big dairy farms and don't have time to cross border shop, and tend to shop local.

2013 Jan 17
Yes of course pretty much everything in this thread is anecdotal. It would be interesting to see real stats though.

As for those half dozen friends - some of them frequent this site and pretty much all of my friends know how I feel about cross border shopping (and just about everything else I'm passionate about) anyway.

2013 Jan 17
It's unfortunate but with the highest priced dairy goods in the world with no real need but to make a few dairy farmers very rich I can understand why some would cross the border...

A fresh 30 pound turkey here cost me $78, the same size turkey @ an average American grocery store was just over $30.

While I agree with Zym that because of important social programs & the Universal Health Care costs our taxes are higher than the states but I don't agree that minimum wage has anything to do with it; IMO the 30% increase in minimum wage hurt more than helped the average Ontario worker.

Terry

2013 Jan 17
Terry,

Take a look on the net for the many articles on the Dairy Fiscal Cliff in the US. I am sure there is a Turkey one as well. These two items are heavily subsidized in the US and hence why there are cheap prices there on them. This is very different from buying a set of ball joints for my truck in the US vs locally. The cost of manufacturing is the same as they are made overseas, but the hands in the loop for getting them to market in Canada grab a bigger fist of cash from my pocket.

Krusty,

2013 Jan 17
American Manufacturers coming back home

www.bbc.co.uk

as per my comment above about globalization reversing itself

And to keep it on topic let's assume they are manufacturing kitchen appliances :-)

2013 Jan 17
Subsidies, quotas & the Dairy Board are the reasons our dairy is so high; the only reasons it's lower in the states is because of population, both countries are at fault & we're both more expensive than European countries...

It's a joke, these subsidies force us to pay more a number of things in this country, Dairy, Beef, Poultry, Eggs,Wineries,Canadian Magazines/newspapers etc etc..

We pay pensions for private companies; it's ridiculous that families & small business' are forced to pay outrageous prices so a few HUGE corporations don't have to worry, why can't I buy my Wine, Beer & Alcohol directly from the distributor? We should be selling alcohol before tax at competitive prices with the LCBO & Beer store, why is it I can buy Quebec Beef in Ontario but Ontario Farmers can't sell in Quebec?

It's absurd how things got so out of hand..

Terry

2013 Jan 17
Terry,

I am all for a free market and abolishing these marketing boards we have.

Though I disagree. The US is cheaper as it gets more subsidies, not because of population. Same with many countries in Europe.

www.theglobeandmail.com

Not that I trust the G&M but an interested start.

K

2013 Jan 18
Hi

Just wanted to say i've been crossing the border daily
For over 4 years now, i cross with 1000$ of parts and
do not pay duty, have not in 4 yesrs. Including on
300 cigars lol. I regularly cross with parcels and no duty or
taxes. Cross border shopping works if your honest with
CBSA. I deliver parcels from ogdensburg to ottawa
daily using my US address and never get pulled in but
maybe its just me. Thanks
Pierre@eps-inc.ca

2013 Jan 21
AD_2,

That is a great price. I bought some of the tablets for 2 Euros each (C$2.70) and bought a couple of 1 lb of 64% I think for about 7 Euros each and that was sale price I think.

2013 Jan 21
Good news as far as I'm concerned, regarding Zym's linked BBC story. Aside: why the thumb down?

I also read somewhere about the denim industry making a comeback in the US South.

Terry, not sure why subsidies from the govt would increase prices? Honest question, am I missing something?

Personally, I think prices are as high as they are due to govt intervention in the way of taxes, over-regulation, minimum-wage laws, and other do-goodery that costs businesses a pretty penny, with no choice but to pass it on. Even high property taxes which are passed on to renting business owners then passed on to consumers.

2013 Feb 5
Looks like the Senate already did study this and the report is out tomorrow.

www.cbc.ca

And yet my post above which suggested the Senate should do this go 6 thumbs down.

2013 Feb 10
"country pricing" a major factor ... manufacturers simply charge Canadian retailers 10% to 50% more

www.cbc.ca

We need a government with some balls to put an end to this

2013 Feb 13
Tell me about your favourite local places to shop! I think that's what Zym had in mind, not a discussion on the moral and economic implications of the subject, however interesting that may be. If I'm incorrect about this-then Zym-you're a real shit disturber-as usual! LOL!
When I finish writing this, I'm going out to Lavergne's in Navan to get some bacon, sausage, kassler and other goodies. Then I'm going to Montego's for some roti shells. If I want tomatoes that taste like tomatoes in February, I'll buy Suntech, wherever I can find them. I like Nicastro's in the market-according to my Italian sources, the selection and prices are better than some cities en Italia. The cheese places in the market also sometimes have good specials. I love the Sausage Kitchen-if I'm looking for something to BBQ. Being a meatavore, I also frequent Saslove's and Aubrey's.

I'm sure most, if not all of you know about these places, but why drive 200k when all this good stuff is right here. Is there a butcher in Og, or just 'factory' meat? On the flip side I generally find the fruit/veg vendors in the market to be expensive for most things, and have heard some shakey stories about how prices are set.

Personally I like local even if it's more expensive, and I like the better service I get from a locally owned business rather than a big chain-ever tried to get useful information about something at Canadian Tire (OK the auto parts guys generally know what they're doing-but everyone else)
Taking merchandise back if you have a problem with it is also a consideration, even locally sometimes if you're buying at a chain (IE. Best Buy, Future Shop, if you don't go for their warranty, but in a X border situation it becomes far more complicated.
On the other hand sometimes there's stuff you can't get here, but can in the US.
I know a chef who gets collard greens and other southern delicacies from the Aldi in Og.
I would consider going to Syracuse just to eat at Dinosaurs tho! But that's X border EATING not shopping-something else entirely.

A friend of mine works for CBSA, and she told me this story about X border shopping. One item that is much cheaper in the US is turkeys. You are only allowed to bring back 1 per visit. My friend is working one day and a car pulls up to enter Canada. When asked if they had anything to declare, they said they had some groceries, including a turkey. There was a suspicious smell coming from the engine compartment. Upon inspection, my friend discovered that there were about a dozen turkeys crammed under the hood. DUHHH

2013 Feb 13
Hungry Pete It looks like you have all of my favourite Byward Market haunts on your list! But I would also throw in Continental Delicatessen for even more meaty goodness. Finding fresh veg during the winter is a challenge so if I stick to the downtown core there is the Byward Fruit Market or Market Organics. There is a Metro and a Loblaws on Rideau Street but I'm not terribly fond of their underripe, lack-of-taste fruit and veggies.

There is the Ottawa Organic Farmers Market in Ottawa South that is open year round so I try to stick to that market during the winter months. They have locally raised meat on a regular basis. Some fruits and veggies are available during the winter months but they are imported organic ones. Not sure if that makes a difference to your shopping habits but they sure beat the grocery store products.

If I am in the Ottawa South area I like to pick up my fruits and veggies from Farm Boy and Cedars. I can't say I've bought meat at either place so I can't attest to their quality.

If I am in Westboro I like the Piggy Market for, well, everything. I have been consistently pleased with their meats, pâtés, and jamaican patties. They also sell Pascale's ice cream which is important to those of us who love her salted caramel and dark chocolate ice creams. During the summer months they sell produce from local farms.

If I am in the Little Italy area I like everything at Luciano's. They make their sausages in-house and they all taste good. Their meats are also very fresh and tasty.

When I head out to Merivale area I usually alternate paying a visit to the European Deli, Dutch Imports, or Nicastros for lunch (their sandwiches are all awesome) and I usually pick up some meats to take home - all are highly recommended. Costco also has really fresh meats and some nice Quebec cheeses.

Happy shopping!

2013 Feb 19
Yes Pasta Lover! I forgot the Continental. Also for general retail shopping-there is a No Frills out in Orleans which is hands down the cheapest place in town for a lot of stuff-they often have great prices on chicken, pork, whole ducks, and other good stuff. The selection is not super great tho.

2013 Apr 18
Tomorrow night on the 5th Estate (CBC) they are doing an expose on why prices are so much more expensive here - can't wait to see what they've uncovered that a Senate sub committee could not

2013 Apr 18
I hope they cover the cellular telephone oligopoly. Where the big three here earn approx 45% profit margins while the rest of the Western world's cell providers see 30-35% profit margins.

And what's happening to the price of eyeglasses when Clearly Contacts started producing 5-7 thousand pairs A DAY, at cut rate prices. And selling them over the net.

etc.

etc.


2013 Apr 19
Oh it is Marketplace not 5th Estate

Marketplace already did a big expose on the eyeglasses industry

2013 Apr 19
...and how about the various marketing boards.

Like The Ontario Milk Marketing Board.

I like paying $6.00 for a pound of butter ($3.00 in Ogdensburg), so I can help pay for what ?


2013 Apr 19
fyi butter is $2.99/lb at Independent this week Captain. I have yet to pay $6 for a pound of butter where I shop so we likely shop at different stores, no? I too wonder what are you paying for.

2013 Apr 19
Yeah, and what about the price of hot air balloons? Clearly you've found a cheap source of hot air somewhere Captain Caper - how about sharing?

2013 Apr 19
I hope Market Place covers the high cost of Aeropress in Canada.

2013 Apr 19
EDIT: OK I guess since Captain Caper won't stand by his own posts I'll have to change my response since my original response no longer makes sense. I got a private message from warby that a request had been made by Captain Caper to delete most of the previous post in this thread. I've been away for the weekend so I don't really recall all of what has been cut from this thread at Captain Caper's request. My head is too full of a fun weekend volunteering my time giving a great camping experience to a bunch of local kids, and this site was the last thing on my mind.

Personally I stand by everything I've ever posted here even when I may no longer agree with my own words. But when that happens I'll be the first to admit it, I won't cover it up.

The remaining part of my original response is here :

And incidentally I also hope they cover the high cost of Aeropress in Canada - I'm the first guy who'd like an answer to that. As I explained to you in email my cost is pretty close to the retail price on Amazon so there's no way in heck I can compete with them.