Coffee Nazis? [General]

2011 Sep 14
Just read this story online:
www.nypost.com
I know that some people on OF are very serious about their coffee (remember the "flat white" debate of a few months back?)

I'm curious if there are coffee nazis in Ottawa who won't serve espresso to go?

2011 Sep 14
when I open up my coffee shop I won't serve anything to go unless you have your own mug - but that is for environmental reasons

2011 Sep 14
I was at the Abraço place mentioned in the article back in April. It's not mentioned in the piece, but they also don't serve espresso to-go (they are mentioned as the one-size-only shop). I ordered a latte and an espresso and I was given the latte in a styrofoam cup and the espresso in a standard porcelain espresso cup. I suppose I could have left the shop with their espresso cup and saw what they would have done.

I never would have made a scene as it makes perfect sense for espresso. It only gets worse very quickly and even a double-espresso is pretty small, so what's the point.

I've never tried it Ottawa as a) I've mostly given up on Ottawa espresso and stick to lattes and b) I'd probably never order it to go anyway. I seem to remember seeing tiny styrofoam cups at some cafes though.

2011 Sep 16
I think behaviour like this is pathetic. It's akin to a restaurant refusing to allow you to have salt and pepper because the chef has determined that the taste of his dish is exactly correct as it leaves the kitchen., or only allowing certain wines to be ordered with a particular dish.

We are living in a world of increasing pressure on disposable income, and dining out is one of the first sacrifices that many will make. Many talented and knowledgeable restaurateurs who are happy to work to their customers' desires and tastes struggle through no fault of their own; food fascists who are determined to arrogantly assert their superior knowledge over their customers deserve to be the first to fail.

I love it when chefs, waiters and restaurateurs are willing to share their knowledge with me so that I may learn more about what I'm eating and enhance my enjoyment of the food, but it should be done in such a way as to make the customer feel enriched, not belittled. We have great examples of the former in Ottawa - Domus and the Wellington Gastropub are two that spring to mind. I urge foodies when faced with the latter type of service to inform the establishment of the error of their ways, and then to inform anyone else who will listen of the unpleasantness of the experience. We should support businesses who welcome customers, not those for whom we are an uneducated encumbrance.

2011 Sep 16
johnny - the article is about coffee, not food. i don't think you can compare the two as equals here.

zym - where will your coffee shop be? in westport the mainstreet coffee shop & ice cream is up for lease. they are in a heritage building, 1 block from the water (excellent fishing) and right near the tourist centre. i can tell you all about it, if you're interested. the teeny-tiny farmer's market is ripe for expansion if you want to sell any of your canning/baked goods/etc. something to consider, but you'd have to relocate there. is it just south of perth.

2011 Sep 16
I don't agree. The principle is the same; if I'm buying a prepared foodstuff from an establishment, I find it offensive in the extreme for the vendor to dictate to me how I can or can't consume it. I don't see a difference between coffee and food in that instance.

2011 Sep 16
Westport is a great little place! That is almost tempting.

But our shop will be right beside our house by the Parkdale Market. In some mythical future when we can afford to build on the other half of our lot ( and get it rezoned ) :-)

2011 Sep 16
zym - darn! i am desperate for good coffee to come to westport, at least during the summer months.

2011 Sep 16
Just read the article and took the quiz at the end and find I'm in agreement with those coffee shop owners - it's their business and they have to make their business model work - if it doesn't then they will be looking elsewhere for work. We can go there or we can choose to go elsewhere. Sitting here sipping my one size only single origin free trade organic freshly roasted and ground coffee I found no ridiculous coffee rules in the quiz, and about the only thing I read that I really can't agree with is that I find coffee quite enjoyable as it cools and the flavours change, more for the better, imho.

Editing to add that I'm new to coffee geekness. I've never been a fan of Starbucks, been there twice, and the second time was last spring at Heathrow just after that coffee brew-ha-ha here that you mention blubarry, and ordered a flat white - they were so busy that they were premaking coffees and actually had some flat white premade so that's what I got and it was so not memorable a coffee-drinking experience for me. I just shudder thinking about it.

2011 Sep 16
johnny eng. i get what you are saying, i just can't compare one business telling the customers they can't have a paper cup to take 1 oz of coffee (espresso) out the door to a professional chef dictating how to consume their food.

the coffee shop rules these businesses have made is a gimic to draw in people. there is no shortage of coffee shops - especially in new york city, so a few deciding to market themselves as coffee artists, i'd put more inline with somewhere like preston street's divino wine studio, where they dictate what kind of glass to use with the wine.


2011 Sep 16
I know the term 'nazi' is used here in the context of 'soup nazi' from Seinfeld, but in many of these examples, I would opt for the term 'purist'.

My coffee vendor in Aylmer once served me an espresso made from made from some of his most expensive beans, and he knows I normally take it with sugar. In this instance, although he didn't hide the sugar from me, he insisted it would be a crime to put any in this espresso. He's right, of course.

I think vendors can do whatever they want, if you're not happy you can go elsewhere. They can even refuse you service altogether if they felt like it.

In this case, I imagine they are so serious about this particular offering, that they don't want risk somebody drinking it out of a paper cup or styrofoam then tell others the espresso is not so good or worse.

2011 Sep 16
Completely disagree with Johnny English with regards to food. If I was a 3 star Michelin chef and I saw a diner dosing my food with copious amounts of salt, I would kick yo ass out.


2011 Sep 17
What if they laced it with salt and said it was the best meal they ever had?

2011 Sep 17
Well, just like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, you can make a food item any way you like; maybe you can even make someone eat it or drink it, but you can't make them like it.

2011 Sep 18
Sort of coffee related.

I was at Second cup in Bayshore ordered a coffee and some food and the girl working there REFUSED to give me a glass of water- even if I paid for the cup.
Telling me "we are not allowed to give out cups of water".

Ended up leaving my food and telling her that I was going to get food where I could get water and better service.
This was during the summer when it was extremely hot out too.

Any other coffee place I have asked for water and ice at has always been super nice and has never refused (I usually pay for the cup and/or leave a tip).

Places that have lame service are lousy too.

Zym - maybe you can have a coffee booth at one of the farmers markets??

2011 Sep 18
I have a friend doing coffee booths a farmers markets in New Brunswick and it works well for him. My biggest problem is that I'm not sure I can bring myself to sell cups of coffee in disposable cups. That is not his main money maker mind you, but it does bring in money.

2011 Sep 18
zym, I think you could do well if you acquired coffee cups from the neighb, the s. army, school teachers (who else amasses coffee cups in such quantities?). People walking around in the morning with a fresh steaming cup of joe in a real cup just seems so perfect; you could have an honour system for returns. But then you'd have to deal with even more health dept. regulations wrt washing/drying.

2011 Sep 18
"A good defence is a strong offence."

"Turn you problem into an opportunity."

I like these mantras.

What if the offended coffee shop just played into it all with cute Dixie cup sized cups with clever self-deprecating (in the eye of the take-out person)funny, witty, sarcastic writing beside their logo - "I am drinking New York's best espresso from cardboard instead of china because...." You get the idea. I am not a jingle writer. And upcharge the takeout version because clever sayings on cups are likely not cheap. They get to poke fun at their 'uncultured' clients and maybe encourage them along the way to stop in sometime to relax and enjoy. And they get some extra coin. Self-deprecation seems to be all the rage nowadays so they can ride the wave.

On a local note, I went to Blumen Studio (Parkdale Avenue) on Friday and had a cafe crema. Loved it. I did a wee blog post about yesterday. I won't include the link since I dare not shill and muddy my response here. But you know where to find me.

2011 Sep 19
Really interesting perspectives being shared here. Reminds me of two experiences that stuck with me in the last few years...in Italy a couple years ago we stayed near Venice on the Adriatic coast for nearly a week. One day we ate at a really nice restaurant on the beach and one of the people in our group was about to dump a bunch of amazing Parmesan cheese onto a plate of seafood pasta in a tomato based sauce. The waiter came rushing over and pleaded with him to stop since the cheese would ruin the dish. He wasn't taking it away, but you could tell it was a gross injustice in his eyes. He wasn't the chef, but he was local to the area and a red blooded Italian who knows a thing or two about pasta. My friend promptly put the cheese down.

The second was at a restaurant in Vegas. I was sitting next to a co-worker from the US and all throughout the meal he was taking pictures and typing notes in his phone. The main was served, a gorgeous rack of lamb, and he asked me what I thought of it. I thought it was perfectly cooked and had great flavour. I asked him what he thought and he said it could have been better seasoned, pointing out that some Maldon salt would have done wonders for the dull flavour. Since we both work in IT, I asked him what he was basing his opinion on...turns out he's a food blogger. I asked how he got into food blogging and he told me he had read a bunch of books and eaten at some great restaurants with his girlfriend. I told him that in a past life I trained as a chef at George Brown College, had worked in restaurants for many years and that I thought Wolfgang Puck knew more about seasoning food than I did, even though I had well over 6000 hours in kitchens and studied cooking foundations for over 2 years.

My point, after some rambling, and ranting, is that everyone has an opinion...whether it's a good one, or not. I will admit that I'm not an expert on coffee and I would personally agree with the experts when it comes to how to best serve an espresso. I spent 3 weeks in Italy and I can tell you a take away espresso was never an option I saw...but then again Italians tend to drink coffee standing up on their way to work and would never think of asking for it to go.

2011 Sep 19
Anyone ever notice a lack of cup holders in vehicles in Europe? I've definitely noticed this is Spain.

The slow-down-and-enjoy approach. I like it.

2011 Sep 19
When we lived in the UK, my wife constantly decried the lack of cup holders in vehicles.

I can only assume that this is down to European coffee purists directly influencing automobile design to prevent people getting their coffee to go, and therefore not sullying their precious coffee with paper cups.

2011 Sep 19
Food is Fun and Stuart S., your posts reminded me of a kaiseki meal I had at a restaurant in Tokyo that had three michelin stars. The chef called at our hotel before the meal to inquire if we had any allergies or foods we would prefer to avoid. The only thing I mentioned was that I did not like saba (mackerel) - I find it too oily and heavy for my taste. About 1/3 of the way through this amazing meal, the server brought a beautiful plate with a gorgeous piece of fish and said "the chef knows you dislike saba, but he would like you to please try THIS one". It was a revelation and I told him so. So I guess I do appreciate when someone takes their food or product so seriously that they take pains to educate me as a consumer as to how best to enjoy it.