Fermented Dills - to skim or not to skim [General]

2010 Aug 25
Hi everyone:

I have a 25 L container of baby cukes fermenting in my basement (i.e.: no vinegar just salt water brine and herbs/spices). They are starting to smell amazing with a bit of foam or scum slowly collecting on top of the brine. Should this be skimmed? I have looked into a lot of resources and some suggest that this scum is responsible for the fermentation, some suggest skimming, and some are silent on the matter. Any opinions? If it is just an aesthetic thing to make the whole operation look more appetizing I am inclined to skip it. Thanks...

2010 Aug 25
Alton Brown says skim the scum, I might be inclined to follow his advice considering his food geekery & general experimentation...
www.foodnetwork.com

2010 Aug 25
If Alton Brown's knowledge of dill pickles is anything like his "knowledge" of beer, I would be very hesitant to trust anything he says.

The scum itself does not have to be skimmed. The danger with it if you do not skim it, however, is that it can provide a breeding ground for mold, which if it gets a foothold can spoil your batch. So the regular slimy pickle scum is just fine, but if you see anything else growing on it, skim it!

The scum is a byproduct of the fermentation so skimming will not cause you problems.

BTW, I have recently been enlightened to the joys of small batch sauerkraut and dills, which by their nature produce no scum to be skimmed! I'm not sure why I did not think of this a lot sooner because it is well known to me that very small volumes of fermenting beer do not produce a head at all because the volume to surface area ratio is so much smaller (or is it bigger?) than a full batch. So no need to worry about the fermentation blowing the top off the popper, as it were.

So I'm about to undertake some experiments with fermenting both pickles and kraut right in the jars, to see what I come up with.

EDIT: p.s. I've definitely had entire batches of kraut spoiled from not skimming, thus letting mold get a foothold. Learned the hard way.

2010 Aug 25
Ok thanks, as I understand it floating cukes also provide a "foothold" of sorts for undesired molds.

Z: I've been thinking about in-jar fermentation myself, my only concern was that CO2 could build up creating a bit of a pressure issue, or that fermentation could run unchecked in the jar and pickles/cabbage would ferment too far...

2010 Aug 25
I would not affix the lids tightly while fermenting - that should take care of it. Or put saran wrap over the jar, then the ring. No such thing as fermenting too far though - best kraut I ever made fermented 13 months. If I had more patience I'd do that every time.

2010 Sep 27
Once again, thanks for all the info. I did 5 1L bottles of what I am calling "live" fermented dills (ie: not processed, just put pickles and straight brine into sterillized jars, then refrigereated). They turned out great, a bit funky, very crispy, complex Montreal-jewish-deli goodness. No complaints at all.

Did seven "processed" bottles where I boiled the brine, cooled it, filled sterilized jars, chilled the works, then processed just the top half of the bottles (10 min upside down in a hotel pan boiling water bath). The seals held, but I think that even the 10 minutes might have cooked the pickles a bit and lost some of the awesome texture. We will see in the winter when I open the processed dills, but if the texture is off I will be making and eating a lot of german potato salad and smoked mackerel salad with flaccid dills. Not the end of the world.

Zymurgist have you ever processed bottles of fermented dill pickles? Any tips?

2010 Sep 27
Because of the high acid you only need to pasteurize them. Fully immerse and slowly raise heat to 190F then allow to cool.

2010 Sep 27
From what I understand is that you have to cool it as quickly as possible to pasteurize.

2010 Sep 27
Was thinking of starting a new thread on this but I know it's been covered before...would you recommend the same approach for canning sauerkraut? Going to start a big batch of 'kraut this weekend.

I'm not quite as worried in this case because the texture of sauerkraut doens't strike me as quite as delicate as that of a pickle. If it cooks a bit while processing, not as much of a heartbreaker.

2010 Sep 27
Yes, same for kraut. Though this year I'm going to try not pasteurizing it at all to see how it keeps. I want to keep the bacteria active for digestion. I already know that kraut in general keeps that long just fine - best batch I ever made was fermented 13 months and was perfectly fine when I canned it after that.

mybluestar - I've never tried to cool it quickly. Probably the same theory as in cooling beer though - you want to traverse as quickly as possible the range of temperatures where spoilers thrive. But I've never had a problem not doing that.

2010 Sep 27
I have absolutely no experience in pasteurizing. I had a young woman stay with us when she was doing pastry at the Cordon Bleu and we benefited almost daily from her classes. Being walking distance to the school does have its advantages.

One day she brought home a cake in which she had heated and slow cooled cream. She was told that had unpasterized the cream and the cake had to be eaten in within 24 hours. My children volunteered and successfully made sure that is was consumed very promptly. :)

By the way it was the most amazing cake I have ever tasted... sigh.


2010 Sep 27
Zym's right, any time you heat-process a fermented product you're killing the lactic acid bacteria that are beneficial to your gut. I haven't tried fermented dills yet, I'll probably try that next year. I know Sandor Katz recommends adding grape leaves to the brine while fermenting, he says that the tannins help keep them firm. I've done kimchi a lot lately and it keeps quite well refrigerated - I've had 1 & 1/2 month old stuff that's still perfectly crisp. I'm new to kraut as well, but my colleagues tell me my first batch finished perfectly. I see no reason why it wouldn't keep for a very long time, especially refrigerated (lots of acidity and salt).

2010 Sep 27
Yeah, I always add grape leaves to my dills.

Even pasteurization will cook them some though, which is why I want to experiment with not doing it the way my Ukrainian grandfather did. He used to have a big oak barrel of sauerkraut and another of dills, both just out in the back porch.

2010 Sep 27
I'd like to skip pasteurization as well, but A) I don't have a big enough fridge to store all my stuff and B) I don't have room for two big vats in my basement...although I definitely could see the appeal! Maybe I'll do a half-pasteurized - half "live" approach this time with sauerkraut as well.

2010 Sep 27
Freezing your kraut will keep the bacteria active too - pretty sure it survives freezing. My wife's grandfather did it this way - in milk bags. You don't need a "big vat" though. My 13 month kraut was in a 5 gallon Home Depot bucket. Well, that could be considered "big" I suppose.

2010 Sep 28
There is no need to pasteurize if you use the leftover brine either from the last batch of pickles in your basement, or a store bought jar of kosher dills from the refrigerated section of your local supermarket.The lactic acid bacteria in the brine produce a compound called bacteriocin, which will kill most other contaminant microbes.

The existing bacteriocin in the brine will prevent contaminant microbes that get introduced from the air, or are found on the surface of your cukes or other veggie of choice, from growing.

If you are making brine from scratch and getting your lactic acid bacteria inoculum from airborne microbial spores,however, there will be a time lag during which other bacteria and mold can grow before the lactic acid bacteria becomes established. In this case, pasteurization may be necessary (at least sterilize the jar and let boiling water cool before adding the veggies). When it comes to germ warfare, timing is everything.

2011 Aug 26
I finally got around to making a video for this


2011 Sep 9

2011 Sep 9
BTW, what spices are folks adding to their dills? I usually do just dill and garlic but was thinking of branching out this year.

2011 Sep 9
I kept it even simpler this year. My pickles last year had a very good, complex flavour but I didn't find them particularly dill-flavoured. So this time went with lots of garlic and tons of dill (a 4 foot plant in a 25 L wine making pail) with no. 3 pickling cucumbers and also did a smaller crock of cornichon-style pickles- no.1's with peeled pearl onions, garlic and a lot of tarragon. I tend to keep flavourings very simple until the basic technique has been grasped, and then modify or supplement from there once I am satisfied I know what I am doing.

Strangely, I found the no.1s created a lot of fuzzy blue mold within days that had to be skimmed...it could be that the more porous crock harboured more blue-type bacteria, or that I started earlier in the year when it was warmer. I'm not really sure.

2011 Sep 9
Blue? Only time I've ever had blue was on a batch of sauerkraut about 11 or 12 years ago and I tossed it. I had gone a good week without checking it and that was early on (the 2nd week maybe) so it was not acid enough yet.

2011 Sep 12
While I missed the boat this year on dills, and am down to my last jar from the old batch (weep) - I do dill, some pickling spice, garlic and then either horseradish (a chunk) or a hot pepper such as jalapeno. Horseradish keeps things milder but still a bit of punch. I'll also keep some plain for those that can't seem to tolerate any heat.