When is it time to just stay home? [General]

2010 Aug 22
In general, I really enjoy reading the reviews on this site, and fine that very often the opinions here help me decide where to have my next meal in the city. That said, recently I have been noticing a lot of really negative, miserable reviews. Nasty comment like the one made on the Murray Street vendor page about how the servers "generally don't look or act very happy" have been grabbing my attention. Really, what does a comment like that have to do with the quality of a restaurant? Maybe they were just having an off day (this happens to the best of us, admit it) or perhaps, they have been serving grouchy, cheap people all day who treat them like personal slaves and then run home to whine about it on the internet.

I don't come to this site to read someone's rant about how they hated a restaurant. Just the opposite in fact. I love food and really enjoy hearing what other people liked too. What I don't think anyone really wants to hear is an in-depth rant bashing any restaurant and making personal attacks on the waitstaff. A lot of people seem to have completely forgotten the whole point of going out for a meal. Rather than going out to have a good time and enjoy themselves over a good meal with good company, they go out to nit pick and complain. I get it that you aren't going to like anything, and that's fine, but why does reviewing have to turn into a such a negative experience?

2010 Aug 22
Actually I seem to be reading alot of negativity about the servers, but alot of good about the food.

I'm not surprised. Customer service is going out the door everywhere. When I have good service I say so.

The service has ALOT to do with the restaurant review, but for me it's all about the attitude. A server can make a bunch of mistakes, but if they are pleasant, apologize and try to do what they can for us - we will joke about it.

Having had some great service in all kinds of restaurants, I can tell you right now that it makes a HUGE difference and I remember it.

When the waitstaff does not make an effort, it can sour your evening, when the waitstaff engages their customers, it makes an evening even more pleasant.

As someone who is usually pleasant and engages the servers and often has a great time with them and my table (I can think of high end joints and low-end joints), I don't usually have an issue, but when I do - it usually means I won't be returning.

Seems to me that if everyone is complaining about this - then it's an issue. And no, I don't think it is us whining either.

2010 Aug 22
I appreciate balance in the reviews that I read. I have no interest in "nastiness", and agree with you that negative rants are not particularly helpful - I can get the message with a few polite and carefully chosen words to let me know that someone has had an unfortunate experience. I actually find that across multiple reviews on this site, I can usually get a pretty good idea of what to expect at a restaurant.

I can't say that I agree that comments about the attitude of the waitstaff are irrelevant. Certainly, we should all appreciate that not every day is a great day, but these folks are being paid at least in part to reflect the atmosphere that the proprietor would like to create. If I read comments about the waitstaff being "professional", or "friendly" or "having a great time", I factor that into my decisions, and appreciate the perspective. I am equally appreciative when someone warns me that I may find the service stuffy or aloof. It may or may not make a difference to my choice, depending on what I am looking for that evening. If I'm looking for a place with a more upbeat vibe, I might choose Play over other more formal venues, as an example.

I don't expect servers to create a party every night, but in my view, a certain amount of cheerfulness is part of the job in the service business. I have no idea whether proprietors watch what is said on this site, but if they do, I would think it would be helpful to them to know that they need to reinforce this for their staff.

Comments about atmosphere, including the positive or negative contributions of the waitstaff, are helpful to me. It will be interesting to see what others have to say.

2010 Aug 22
Hmm, perhaps I came across the wrong way. I too appreciate good service and think it is an essential part of the dining experience. It's definitely a deal breaker for me on whether or not to return to a restaurant. I was referring more to nasty comments or personal attacks on servers that do not necessarily reflect the quality of service. I think expecting someone to have a smile plastered on their face all the time is unreasonable. I expect good service too, but if for some reason the server isn't all jokey jokey with me, I am not going to rush off to complain over the internet. I think a key part of your comment, Schnicken, is that you are usually pleasant and engage the waitstaff and don't usually have a problem. I suspect a lot of people aren't a amiable as you, which probably reflects on the kind of service they are receiving. Often, I read reviews and immediately think what a nightmare the person must have been to serve!

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that I do think good service is an essential part of any dining experience and obviously very relevant to a review, I just don't think it's fair or necessary to post really mean spirited comments that often don't even have anything to do with someone's serving ability. The welcome to this page claims "hard work, mutual respect and an almost fanatical commitment to eating" and one of the "rules" that is listed right above the post button reminds people to "treat vendors with the same respect you expect from them as a customer." Which in general, is very reflective of the people who post here, I've just noticed a few posts recently that seem to forget all about the respect part and just focus on negative attacks. People seem to forget that good customer service is a two-way street.

2010 Aug 23
Customer service is not a two-way street. Respect is a two-way street, but for those in customer service, their job is to make your experience nice regardless.

From wikipedia: “Customer service is a series of activities designed to enhance the level of customer satisfaction – that is, the feeling that a product or service has met the customer expectation."

2010 Aug 23
I concur Snoopy Loopy. Good customer service is NOT a two-way street. When I am out, I am paying to be served a good meal. Key word being 'served'. Mlle Fantine, please don't take this comment out proportion, but having worked in the service industry, it is a server's job to serve with a good attitude. It should be a part of their professionalism. Think of it as a part of their uniform that they put on. When they come to work, they put on their uniform and leave the bad attitude outside. Yes, I have had to work when I wasn't in the best mood - however, never is that ok to show to my customers, ever.

I guess it depends on the level of committment from the servers. Perhaps I am asking too much, but I believe in pride in your work and people who are paying money, no matter how much, are in their choice.

So when you ask 'Is it better to just stay home', somtimes it might be for me, if I know I am going to a place to that is know for, albeit good food, hit and miss service.


2010 Aug 23
I think that leaving the leaving a bad attitude outside is a rule that applies everywhere. It is part of professionalism and good manners. Even my children understand that.

The reality is, not everybody has good interpersonal skills and they really should not be working in a service environment.

2010 Aug 23
I just think it's worth pointing out that the implication (satirically exaggerated for emphasis) of the last few arguments is as follows: If you work in any service job you have to put on a nice face even if the customer is abusing you, outright in the wrong, rude, racist, bigoted, or any number of other ways customers with an inflated sense of entitlement can make douchebags of themselves. Furthermore, if at any point you, the service worker, fail to maintain form even in the face of the utter sludge of humanity which walks through the door, it's you who is in the wrong because you chose to work this job.
Another way of putting it: As a paying customer I am entitled to act any way I please, and expect a smiling face from the service worker I'm sexually harassing. Hey, it's professionalism on the service worker's part. As a customer I'm not required to be professional, polite, or even respect the dignity of others. It's all on the service worker, not at all on me.
If "some people shouldn't be working in service" is a claim we are supposed to accept, then I propose an analogous, even identical claim: "some people shouldn't be served". Utmost respect to owners and managers (in all fields) who, on the rare occasion it is necessary, stand up for themselves and their staff and don't take crap from customers with entitlement issues who think they can get away with anything. Thankfully most customer service problems are easily resolvable, provided both sides are open to the fact that they could be at fault. Most customers don't act like spoiled children, but some do, and just because someone is working in a service job doesn't mean they should have to take that kind of crap.

2010 Aug 23
Wow - how about we tone this down a tad. :-)

I think we are adult enough here to 'assume' that the bad attitude service we received wasn't warranted. And no, you should not treat servers or non-servers or anyone in general, like that.

Because I have been in their shoes, I am exceptionally polite, smile when approached and say please and thank you. If, after all this, they still have a bit of 'tude, then I stand by my above statements.

Your statements Hatman, although "...satirically exaggerated for emphasis..." just don't flow to a realistic coro11ary for me. Sorry.

2010 Aug 23
Just curious Mlle Fantine, are you involved in the restaurant industry?


2010 Aug 23
You can only control your own actions not those of others and your actions regardless of the reason may affect the dining experience of other customers. Is that appropriate?

I think that the original context of the thread was about bad service that was not due to the actions of of a customer. I never said that all customers are well behaved nor am I making a judgement on how to deal with a rude customer (that is a completely different discussion). My point is that if you are in a bad mood, you should not take it out on your customers.

It is considered okay to give sensational praise for the food and / service on these pages - at least I have not read of any complaints about this practice. Then, if somone experiences bad service or really bad food, why is it inappropriate to write about it as well?


2010 Aug 23
First of all, my apologies to "JoJo". I was not aware that my chosen screen name is so close to one that already exists. I'll look into changing mine.

As to the topic of this thread, I think we've lost focus a bit. My read of the initial comment, and subsequent clarification, is that we need to be sure we are not being unnecessarily unkind in our feedback. I think we all agree that we appreciate feedback about atmosphere and service. We also agree that respect is always appropriate - on both sides of the table. I have not seen anything in this thread that suggests personal attacks or other forms of nastiness are considered appropriate by anyone.

The point of debate is whether some degree of cheerfulness is a job duty in servers, and whether the absence of such is worthy of comment. I happen to think it is, as long as it's presented politely.

As to the comment about whether "some people shouldn't be served", I think that's actually true. If someone is especially rude or obnoxious, and crosses the line of generally accepted behavioural norms, I think the proprietor is well within their rights to ask them to leave. I've seen it done.

2010 Aug 23
Agreed :)

2010 Aug 23
Well said. :-)

2010 Aug 23
Satirical exaggeration aside Hatman I don't understand the combativeness and aggression that people think needs to take place when there are people ( customers ) who behave badly. The best servers (and managers) I have seen handle boorish customers with grace, and aplomb, and EVERYONE in the establishment is better for it. We would not consider it appropriate to be loud, and rude to a child who was misbehaving (well.. most of us). There are many ways to handle delicate situations with customers that does not involve engaging, or acknowledging their poor social skills or bad behaviour. I don't think it has to be a simple choice between 'suck it up' or 'explode on the customer'. I fully agree with mybluestar that there are people who have poor service industry skills, that if they are not willing to learn better skills, should not be surprised to find themselves unwanted by employers. That being said, I place the blame for poor service almost categorically on management. It is their responsibility to ensure well versed staff, or ensure the training of said staff, or get rid of poorly performing staff.

2010 Aug 23
Well said again :)

What may be a good technique is to ask in a completely soft and caring tone the question: "Are you having a bad day? You seem so unhappy"

I suspect you will disarm them and make them feel a little guilty. Guilt is such a wonderful tool.

:)


2010 Aug 23
Wow! I wasn't expecting this much feedback over the initial post. I am not really sure where to jump in again at this point, there has been so much back and forth about it. I wasn't trying to start a debate about whether or not it is the servers job to be courteous and efficient - I think we all agree that that is obviously part of the job. Rather, I was commenting on what Bordeaux Jo Jo aptly describes as being "unnecessarily unkind in our feedback," specifically regarding serving staff. If you were treated coldly, I think it is legitimate to perhaps mention it in a review. However, people saying things like all the servers look miserable (or whatever the comment was that I reacted to in my first post) is just unfair, and really irrelevant to the review, I think. I mean, maybe they have a serious face! Maybe their mother just died? Maybe they had a mild stroke and can't permanently fix their lips in an upturned shape, purely for the customer's benefit. As long as you got reasonable service, I just don't think that kind of feedback is in anyway necessary.

My whole "two-way" comment that went over so poorly was meant to suggest that while good service is to be expected generally, it can't be expected if the customer is being a total jerk. I am totally with Hatman and Bordeaux Jo Jo; there are a few people who, because of their own attitudes and behaviours, shouldn't be served. Luckily, this happens pretty rarely, but when it does, I am fully in agreement with management asking them to leave. But I think more often than not, things don't get to that extreme. When I started this thread, I wasn't thinking so much for the extreme cases. I was just thinking that there are two sides to every story, and the people who rush online to post excessively critical and unkind reviews should perhaps try putting themselves in the other persons shoes. Not saying that every review claiming poor service stems from a rude customer, but I think in general, if people just try being a little nicer and more considerate of their server, they are guaranteed to get better service. The Golden Rule seems to work in all other areas of life, so I am sure dining out is no different. Schnicken said that he/she is usually pleasant and engages the waitstaff and don't usually have a problem. I think that comment illustrates what I was getting at. Basically, if you are nice, people will be nice back.

2010 Aug 24
Excellent discussion.

This hearkens back to a previous post about good ambiance versus poor ambiance, and what should go into a review.

A lot of it is personal preference, so your mileage may vary. Me? I feel that most of the time the attitude of the servers only needs to be brought up in a review if:

A) your experience was overwhelmingly positive, or
B) your server, I don't know, stabbed you or something.

I say this because everybody has their good days and their bad, myself included, but at least when I have a bad day I'm not doing it in public.

I couldn't possibly do what servers do for a living, and I empathize with that. Am I friendlier than the next guy? I dunno. But I do know that I can't remember the last time I had service so bad I had to call it to anybody's attention.

2010 Aug 24
I actually had a server concuss one of my dining companions by smoking her over the head with a thick stoneware plate - you too can enjoy that experience at Kristy's!!! (I was there with seniors, and not of my own volition) It was one of those hilariously tragic slapstick moments in life, an honest accident by the server.

2010 Aug 24
When was this Chimi? I ask because one of my friends works there and if it was her, it would be cause for some good natured ribbing!

2010 Aug 24
This was about 10 months ago. I felt terrible for all involved, my companion had a big lump on her head and the waitress was just falling all over herself trying to make sure everything was OK and in turn ended up being/acting even more clumsy!