Most harmful additives in everyday food [General]
2009 Jul 13
Is this an ad for Greener Green Acres?
It's one thing to debate the merits of various technologies. Organic, traditional farming, no-till, biotech, they all have costs and benefits. We understand that. Fair play.
But is it cool to cut and paste a big list of scary-sounding chemicals on here whilst being the person that sells an alternative? If another firm posted something here making scary claims about organic food, they would be accused of fearmongering etc...
It's one thing to debate the merits of various technologies. Organic, traditional farming, no-till, biotech, they all have costs and benefits. We understand that. Fair play.
But is it cool to cut and paste a big list of scary-sounding chemicals on here whilst being the person that sells an alternative? If another firm posted something here making scary claims about organic food, they would be accused of fearmongering etc...
2009 Jul 13
Well played UrbanRoutine.
(I just find it amusing the people are blaming H1N1 (Swine Flu) on CAFOs. CAFOs are indeed a disturbing part of our culture, but they're not the cause for spreading Swine Flu (I'm a student working in Emergency Preparedness). So, please stop spreading this fallacy.)
(I just find it amusing the people are blaming H1N1 (Swine Flu) on CAFOs. CAFOs are indeed a disturbing part of our culture, but they're not the cause for spreading Swine Flu (I'm a student working in Emergency Preparedness). So, please stop spreading this fallacy.)
2009 Jul 13
Zym, I've got to agree with LWB and urbanroutine on this one. She didn't present an argument for debate, but gave a smear list of 'scary sounding chemicals', that are lumped into an aggregate list of "medically questionable and harmful additives". Well.. are they harmful, or are they just 'medically questionable'? It's pretty hard to argue that almost anything doesn't fit into one of those two categories. Take nitrates for example. I can easily find research that points to benefits of them being in the body such as "The promise of new medical uses for sodium nitrite for heart attack and organ damage" (www.medicalnewstoday.com) Of course, I at least give a link, so the fastidious among us can go and read my 'proof', and deduce that they are talking about sodium nitrate in the blood, and not specifically that which is ingested. Perhaps Irishgal2, you could give links, and offer a single issue, instead of a laundry list?
That being said, the study she mentions is an epidemilogical one, not a clinical one, and while that doesn't mean it's less important, it does mean that its the starting place for more research, and not any sort of proof of guilt on the part of nitrates. I'll sum up the reasoning here:
1. Take 'death rates' from Alzheimers, and make a graph where you plot against use and consumption of nitrate fertilizers, as well as consumption of FAST FOOD.
2. As a control, graph cerebrovascular disease, leukemia, and HIV death rates.
3. Note that as nitrate use goes up, death rates from Alzheimers goes up, and cerebralvascular disease, leukemia, and HIV deaths do not go up.
4. Conclude, the extra alzheimer's deaths may be related somehow, to the increased nitrate use.
5. Use working proposition, that the known negative effects of nitrosamines may be behind this, and nitrosamines are produced both by applying high heat to nitrates (such as cooking/searing bacon), and in high acid environments (stomach)
One last comment. Although the addition of sodium nitrite to foods precludes their eligibility for organic certification, it is hardly synthetic, and is a naturally occuring chemical. Now PTFE (Teflon).. now THATs synthetic...
That being said, the study she mentions is an epidemilogical one, not a clinical one, and while that doesn't mean it's less important, it does mean that its the starting place for more research, and not any sort of proof of guilt on the part of nitrates. I'll sum up the reasoning here:
1. Take 'death rates' from Alzheimers, and make a graph where you plot against use and consumption of nitrate fertilizers, as well as consumption of FAST FOOD.
2. As a control, graph cerebrovascular disease, leukemia, and HIV death rates.
3. Note that as nitrate use goes up, death rates from Alzheimers goes up, and cerebralvascular disease, leukemia, and HIV deaths do not go up.
4. Conclude, the extra alzheimer's deaths may be related somehow, to the increased nitrate use.
5. Use working proposition, that the known negative effects of nitrosamines may be behind this, and nitrosamines are produced both by applying high heat to nitrates (such as cooking/searing bacon), and in high acid environments (stomach)
One last comment. Although the addition of sodium nitrite to foods precludes their eligibility for organic certification, it is hardly synthetic, and is a naturally occuring chemical. Now PTFE (Teflon).. now THATs synthetic...
2009 Jul 13
Well I'll refute the the bird flu with the CAFO's. In fact bird flu is most readily spread from contamination with the bird droppings. Birds that are OUTSIDE are most likely to get and spread the disease. However once inside, with close contact birds in a barn all all in trouble. They likely won't spread the disease as they are going anywhere. People may spread the disease by tramping on their crap. The bird flu originated and spread not in factory farms, but in family farms in SE Asia/China, where close and non-sterile contact occurred between bird keepers and their flocks. The best prevention from birds acquiring the disease is to stick them under cover where they can't get sh*t on. See the story about the ravens in the Tower of London.
I have no idea where/how the swine flu got started - and I'm pretty sure no one else does either - but its not being spread by factory piggies taking vacations in Mexico.
If you ever visit a factory farm, their attention to sanitary controls is very high. If it wasn't their lively hood gets wiped out in one fell swoop. This is true whether you pitty the animals inside or not.
I have no idea where/how the swine flu got started - and I'm pretty sure no one else does either - but its not being spread by factory piggies taking vacations in Mexico.
If you ever visit a factory farm, their attention to sanitary controls is very high. If it wasn't their lively hood gets wiped out in one fell swoop. This is true whether you pitty the animals inside or not.
2009 Jul 13
Some of those may indeed be harmful, though I havn't done the research myself in many cases. There are a few which are not direclt harmful from a biological pov. More precisely, Trans-fats are just undigestible fats that accumulate, not causing harm per say but increasing the amount of fat which the body contains. It won't kill you, just makes you put on the pounds.
White sugar is not harmful at all. Sucrose is one of the most easily consumed vector for glucose, necessary for all cellular function. The only harm with White Sugar is that an overabundance causes increased weight and can in extreme cases cause Type 2 Diabetes (to the best of my information).
Sodium Choride being dangerous? I will take that with more then a little bit of salt.
White sugar is not harmful at all. Sucrose is one of the most easily consumed vector for glucose, necessary for all cellular function. The only harm with White Sugar is that an overabundance causes increased weight and can in extreme cases cause Type 2 Diabetes (to the best of my information).
Sodium Choride being dangerous? I will take that with more then a little bit of salt.
2009 Jul 13
Zym - I wasn't questioning the truth of her claims. Not a jot. I understand that when we make decisions for ourselves we use our own set of values and our own definition of what is evidence. Personally, I'm happiest eating things that have the minimum amount of intervention possible--sometimes that means organic, sometimes not.
My question was and remains, is it cool to claim that some food is dangerous when you make your living selling an alternative? Is there a conflict of interest there? If a biotech company said nasty things about organic agriculture, we'd be lining up to shout "J'accuse!"
Since I read the post this morning I have been thinking about that. If the post had been a straight up ad extolling the virtues of Greener Green Acres, it would seem a bit more... honest maybe?
I totally want to hear awesome things about the cool stuff my neighbours grow on their farms. I want to eat that stuff and feed it to my friends. The original post just went about it in a backhand and fear-based way. Not nice.
My question was and remains, is it cool to claim that some food is dangerous when you make your living selling an alternative? Is there a conflict of interest there? If a biotech company said nasty things about organic agriculture, we'd be lining up to shout "J'accuse!"
Since I read the post this morning I have been thinking about that. If the post had been a straight up ad extolling the virtues of Greener Green Acres, it would seem a bit more... honest maybe?
I totally want to hear awesome things about the cool stuff my neighbours grow on their farms. I want to eat that stuff and feed it to my friends. The original post just went about it in a backhand and fear-based way. Not nice.
2009 Jul 13
Issues aside with the article (of which there seems to be many), I have questions about the posting of said article.
First did Irishgal2 post it as an informative piece, or as a debate piece. Did she intend it as one, and it quickly became the other?
IF, her intention was merely to post it as an informative piece, with real no intention of sparking contraversy as to her own business interests, then I'd be ok with it (which I certainly hope was her intention)... BUT like Urbanroutine & Lady Who Brunches I am always suspicious of stuff like this when one has a personal interest.
LOL, to be honest, I'm kind of on the fence on this one... I don't want to believe that Irishgal2 is shilling because although a NEWBIE she has been active of late in the Forum on topics related to food production, etc (as well as other more general topics). Which is very different from the "hit & run" posters who shill about their businesses blatently once and are gone, or who never participate in any other discussions. I see Irishgal2 as a more regular poster who is contributing to the OF community.
So for that reason, I'm giving this topic the benefit of the doubt.
First did Irishgal2 post it as an informative piece, or as a debate piece. Did she intend it as one, and it quickly became the other?
IF, her intention was merely to post it as an informative piece, with real no intention of sparking contraversy as to her own business interests, then I'd be ok with it (which I certainly hope was her intention)... BUT like Urbanroutine & Lady Who Brunches I am always suspicious of stuff like this when one has a personal interest.
LOL, to be honest, I'm kind of on the fence on this one... I don't want to believe that Irishgal2 is shilling because although a NEWBIE she has been active of late in the Forum on topics related to food production, etc (as well as other more general topics). Which is very different from the "hit & run" posters who shill about their businesses blatently once and are gone, or who never participate in any other discussions. I see Irishgal2 as a more regular poster who is contributing to the OF community.
So for that reason, I'm giving this topic the benefit of the doubt.
2009 Jul 13
The benefit of the doubt, Food and Think? Can I get a side of salt with that ;)
Really though, I'm not bothered by the content fo the article as much as the style in which it is written. It is borderline fear-mongering. (And frankly after spending three hours debating the emergency health risks in Ottawa, I've heard enough of that for one day).
Additives are designed to do many things. Do they have side effects? Sure. In fact, you can argue quite well that a side effect is just that: doing something. It preserves the food. It may also cause us harm in the long run. It also makes the food pretty. It makes it tastier (to some of us).
The question is, which one is your priority? For a company like Greener Green Acres, it's easy to say that the priority of the corporate food industry is doing us harm in the long run, because it advances their agenda. On the other hand, people who can foods to preserve them, or because they like the taste will be countered with public health officials crying Botulism (that meeting I was talking about?...)
Really though, I'm not bothered by the content fo the article as much as the style in which it is written. It is borderline fear-mongering. (And frankly after spending three hours debating the emergency health risks in Ottawa, I've heard enough of that for one day).
Additives are designed to do many things. Do they have side effects? Sure. In fact, you can argue quite well that a side effect is just that: doing something. It preserves the food. It may also cause us harm in the long run. It also makes the food pretty. It makes it tastier (to some of us).
The question is, which one is your priority? For a company like Greener Green Acres, it's easy to say that the priority of the corporate food industry is doing us harm in the long run, because it advances their agenda. On the other hand, people who can foods to preserve them, or because they like the taste will be countered with public health officials crying Botulism (that meeting I was talking about?...)
2009 Jul 13
Hello everyone, I didn't expect such a reaction to what I thought would be just a general interest item. I did not invent or think this up, I simply copied it from OCA (with their permission). It's just info I thought I would pass along to a food site with food lovin' people, about food. I cannot take everything out of the foods I eat and am only just learning about what is good and bad, so I thought others would want to learn too. I think the OCA is a terrific organization. I guess I was kinda getting their name out. I don't know what this has to do with my site, I'm not really that good of a cook, I just love food, good food, with good atmosphere. personally - I lOVE MSG too! AND I am having a lot of problems weaning myself OFF aspartame. I am NOT a company LWB, i'm a little farm outside Ottawa, you don't have to be scared of me.
ps) I love this site. Even though I am new here. i haven't been able to wander around the internet very much and daButcher told me about it and I feel it is somewhere I can converse (and learn from) like-minded people. This is becoming my social life - lol
ps) I love this site. Even though I am new here. i haven't been able to wander around the internet very much and daButcher told me about it and I feel it is somewhere I can converse (and learn from) like-minded people. This is becoming my social life - lol
2009 Jul 13
wow!
rather a contentious group here on OF lately
IG2 merely posted some thoughts she wanted to share from another site
I believe she should have posted a link so we could read it and not just go by her post but there's no need to act like a bunch of rabid.........foodies, errr...you know what I mean
and ya out of the 12 listed I am partial to my MSG and my nitrites (well when making home made bacon that is...texture just isn't the same)
rather a contentious group here on OF lately
IG2 merely posted some thoughts she wanted to share from another site
I believe she should have posted a link so we could read it and not just go by her post but there's no need to act like a bunch of rabid.........foodies, errr...you know what I mean
and ya out of the 12 listed I am partial to my MSG and my nitrites (well when making home made bacon that is...texture just isn't the same)
2009 Jul 13
Hmmm, my home made bacon turned out just fine without nitrites - never even thought to add them. I brined the slab (whatever the "big bacon cut" is called) for a couple of days, then cut it up into smaller pieces and smoked them all for a few hours.
What is nitrite supposed to do to the texture?
What is nitrite supposed to do to the texture?
2009 Jul 14
Ah chef Obi.. yes, I guess we can be a contentious lot, but it seems like some posts attract the scavengers more than others. I was simply trying to figure out the point of the original post. I wrote more.. but deleted it. It wasn't mean or anything, just long. If anyone is interested, send me a message and I'll give you a copy.
The original Jean Weiss article on MSN is here: health.msn.com
The original Jean Weiss article on MSN is here: health.msn.com
2009 Jul 14
Zymurgist: I too don't use nitrates or nitrites in my cured products, but I think I am giving up a little bit of the pinkish-red colouring that makes hams, bacon, pastrami et al. so attractive.
As far as botulism goes, I take the prep process seriously but nevertheless from my research on the topic it would seem that I still take somewhat of a risk.
If I was preparing charcuterie in a resto or for sale I think I'd have to reevaluate...
As far as botulism goes, I take the prep process seriously but nevertheless from my research on the topic it would seem that I still take somewhat of a risk.
If I was preparing charcuterie in a resto or for sale I think I'd have to reevaluate...
2009 Jul 14
I use nitrates in some things and none in others. I never use msg, but don't so much mind consuming a little now and again. Salt, yep use it, sugar, for sure. Its the two main ingredients in cured products. What would we do with out all that yummy mennonite summer sausage anyways? I never use food coloring while cooking or artificial flavors. Local vs organic? Well that's a different subject all together....
From reading up until this point it looks as though IG2 posted what should have been a link, that has been miss read into a billboard for her business? Still trying to figure this one out. If she had remained anonymous from the time she signed up on OF would this of been a issue?
(popcorn is now popping)
From reading up until this point it looks as though IG2 posted what should have been a link, that has been miss read into a billboard for her business? Still trying to figure this one out. If she had remained anonymous from the time she signed up on OF would this of been a issue?
(popcorn is now popping)
2009 Jul 14
Thank-you Pete-in-Ottawa for the full Jean Weiss article. i found the name of the site I get a newsletter from. It is www.organicconsumersorganization.org I love to learn and I love to share what I learn.
Another Thank-you to LWB for giving me a heads up about stuff that could be misconstrued as mercenary or commercial. That is not my intent.
Thanks AGAIN Pete-in-Ottawa, I always find for every negative there is a positive so thanx for the info on Nitrates.
I am going to be trying to make proscuittio (which i can type but cannot pronounce) so you can bet I will be using salt (which i use too much on my food anyways). I am going to switch to Himilayan Rock salt , a vegan friend uses that and it seems more natural but I don't know anything else about it. Gotta go, my glass of guinness is getting low and I want to visit the Urban hippy site, Cheers
Another Thank-you to LWB for giving me a heads up about stuff that could be misconstrued as mercenary or commercial. That is not my intent.
Thanks AGAIN Pete-in-Ottawa, I always find for every negative there is a positive so thanx for the info on Nitrates.
I am going to be trying to make proscuittio (which i can type but cannot pronounce) so you can bet I will be using salt (which i use too much on my food anyways). I am going to switch to Himilayan Rock salt , a vegan friend uses that and it seems more natural but I don't know anything else about it. Gotta go, my glass of guinness is getting low and I want to visit the Urban hippy site, Cheers
2009 Jul 14
Snoopy loopy: Try going to Veranda D'Or and then tell me that Canadian Chinese food needs MSG. BEST Chinese food I've ever had, and no MSG.
I can't eat MSG, personally, as I have Crohn's Disease and it triggers major Crohn's related issues with me. If I eat more than a small amount of it, I get blockages in my digestive system that are more painful than a broken arm and have me screaming in the bathroom for an hour or two. In that sense, MSG is extremely harmful to me, but it's not to my father, for example, who likes to eat a lot of MSG-rich foods. Same with nitrites: I love bacon and sausages, but my friend is prone to migraines and if she eats them, she'll be incredibly ill for a couple days after the fact.
I can't eat MSG, personally, as I have Crohn's Disease and it triggers major Crohn's related issues with me. If I eat more than a small amount of it, I get blockages in my digestive system that are more painful than a broken arm and have me screaming in the bathroom for an hour or two. In that sense, MSG is extremely harmful to me, but it's not to my father, for example, who likes to eat a lot of MSG-rich foods. Same with nitrites: I love bacon and sausages, but my friend is prone to migraines and if she eats them, she'll be incredibly ill for a couple days after the fact.
Irishgal2
I have copied this (with permission) from the OCA
(ORGANIC CONSUMERS ASSOCIATION - oca@mail.democracyinaction.org
Thanks to MSN Health & Fitness contributor Jean Weiss, a list of the most medically questionable and harmful additives in everyday foods has been compiled:
1. Sodium nitrite
2. BHA & BHT
3. Propyl gallate
4. Monosodium glutamate
5. Trans fats
6. Aspartame
7. Acesulfame-K
8. Food colorings (Blue & , Red , Green , Yellow )
9. Olestra
10. Potassium bromate
11. White sugar
12. Sodium chloride
...the underlying causes of America's persistent and evermore serious food safety crisis: factory farms and chemical-intensive agriculture.
When addressing the concerns of E.coli or salmonella, the bill focuses on fresh vegetables and fruits rather than CAFOs or intensive confinement factory farms, in effect treating the symptom and not the disease. A close look at the nation's food poisoning epidemics over the past decade reveal that the overwhelming majority of fruit and vegetable contamination incidents are a direct result of water and soil pollution from large factory farms. The OCA believes that HR-2749 should be amended to address factory farming:
1) Animals should never be fed blood, manure or slaughterhouse waste.
2) Cows need to eat grass.
3) Animals need to be spread out on enough land to absorb their waste.
4) CAFOs (Confined Animal Feeding Operations) pose unacceptable risks to human health such as antibiotic resistance, incubate dangerous viruses and pathogens such as the Swine Flu and Bird Flu, contaminate the environment, institutionalize animal cruelty, and need to be phased out and shut down.
According to a study published last week in the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease, sodium nitrite, which is a very common additive added to meat and fish to destroy toxins, reacts with proteins in the meat, damaging human DNA cells. The study links the preservatives to dementia diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. The ingredient, which has also been linked to cancer, can be avoided by reading ingredient labels on meats like cold-cuts, hot dogs, and sausages. Sodium nitrite is a synthetic ingredient not allowed in organic foods.