Rudeness in a 'service industry' [General]

2009 Jul 2
I must vent my frustration when I hear the phrase "Service Industry" in the context that the "Customer is always right" as an excuse for someone to justify rude behaviour in a restaurant.

Usually when an irritated customer is encountered, servers go above and beyond the call of duty to rectify the problem. But there are quite few spoilt, obnoxious customers who take advantage of the "service industry". And when the line is crossed and your arms are tied by the rule that the customer is always right, you lose faith and a little bit of your hope for humanity.

In my case, for years working as a server, the line was finally crossed.

I was working at a very nice ($$) restaurant and had a customer who kept returning every meal I served. After the third attempt, I asked the manager to speak to the customer to find out what was wrong with each plate (the cook and the exec. chef were getting frustrated too).

The manager came back to the kitchen and he declared quite clearly to me "I will serve that table. Do not go there." I was quite surprised and the manager would not tell me why. Later, the cook, who was visibly upset too, told me what the problem was. He said that the customer was insulted that he was being served by an Asian. The customer was clearly a racist and there was nothing that could be done.

While I would not compare asadikhan's Chahaya Malaysia experience to that, I would like to say that hiding behind the "service industry" rule is never an excuse for a customer to exhibit rude behaviour in a restaurant. Would you lean on the back legs of your grandma's dining room furniture?

2009 Jul 2
I do find it somewhat ironic that racists don't like to be served by people of colour (even though they see these people as "below them").

That said, I can't stand when customers hide behind a curtain of righteousness and deservedness in order to get better service. As someone who worked in the service industry, I never stood for it.

I remember one time, we had a customer come into our coffee shoppe, and she was a regular, and would bring us chocolates. Except, one morning she brought one less than there were people working. When I mentioned it ("I appreciate the gesture, though there are four of us, so we'll just share"), she exclaimed well, i only see three people, referring to my Asian co-worker as a non-person. I refused my candy and was very, very monotone with her afterwards.

2009 Jul 2
Witchypoo - can't agree more. People assume that since they're paying for a meal they can act & treat people as if it were their own place. I had a most frustrating dining experience due to the table beside me (albeit, partially exacerbated by my mondo hangover) while dining over brunch at Baker Street Café. Next to my table were two very self-important sounding government employees, bragging about how complex whatever paper-pushing task they had to do the day before was and how they pleased their boss, etc. etc. etc. The meal was taking a while to come out of the kitchen, and this is pretty normal at Baker St. (as per the sign at the door and on the menu, food takes time, it's made to order). Hearing them brag about their jobs was killing me, my hangover was making my head pound and I was praying to the flying spaghetti monster that a miracle would occur in the kitchen and the food would magically appear to shut these twits up. No. Instead, these girls decide to tear a strip off the waitress, not once, but 4 effing times after the waitress already apologized for the hold-up the first 2 times. I almost lost it on them, but my hangover didn't permit me to yell or go ballistic on them, so I shot them a very obvious stinkeye everytime they opened their mouths and was tempted to throw my coffee in their vegan handbags. Needless to say, I still go back to Baker St. because I enjoy the food, but man, sometimes irritating diners can ruin a good dining experience (or make your hangover even worse).

2009 Jul 2
Witchy-Poo, its difficult to judge your manager's actions from behind a keyboard (and my Chimi-sized hangover isn't helping!), but it almost sounds as though he did both you and the restaurant a disservice by continuing on w/ the customer in question. For one, the customer's actions cost the restaurant $ loss. More important, though, how did the manager protect your rights, status and even esteem as a valued employee and as an individual? Again, its hard to judge, but as you've described the circumstances, i feel a bit disappointed on your behalf.

As to the Chahaya Malaysian experience, i'll admit some empathy for asadikhan's side of the story, and i say that as a return customer (not enough) and having listed the restaurant as a favored vendor (and also having led or brought friends to it). A quick skim of the CM reviews, particularly those at RestaurantThing, suggest the "Lady" (as she's sometimes referred to) is not always reserved in her opinions and perhaps a little forward.

restaurantthing.com

My personal experience resonates well w/ JoeBoxer's review, which is to say i appreciate her as an asset to the restaurant. All the same, i can also guess how she might (under perfect storm circumstances) be a bit off-putting to some paying customers.

2009 Jul 3
poo, poo on your manager for not throwing that disgusting piece of s*it out of the establishment

2009 Jul 3
itchy, maybe i'm not looking hard enough, but it seems as though since 2006, there are only four negative reviews of "the lady" (how i hate that term), one of which is from our good friend asadikhan, out of 36 reviews...

i get that she perhaps is opinionated, and that she is more concerned about educating her customers on Malay food than giving them a good service experience (which, some could classify as being educational).

that said, i think there are a lot of restaurants like that, where the owner/matriarch of the family is very defensive of their establishment and hard on customers. think of it as the soup nazi in seinfeld. he's only harsh because he loves his product and because he wants the line to move as fast as possible.

i've had a similar experience in abrasive service (which is what this sounds like to me) at the royal treasure from time to time...

2009 Jul 3
well...
two things.
I don't know what happened between my manager and the table afterwards. I only know that no one got thrown out and the only swearing was in the kitchen. In defence of my manager, I feel he took the dignified way out of a difficult situation (think of Gian Ghomeshi and his interview with "what's his name").

People have different limits as to what is acceptable behaviour. Why would some deserve to be thrown out while others accommodated? It can be very subjective and frustrating for both parties.

But I think that everyone should work in a the service industry in some capacity. Then they would realize what really goes on and is said behind the closed door.

Am I being too Canadian?

2009 Jul 3
Well witchpoo, if I were you manager, I would have graciously served the man (as he did) and told him before leaving to never come back, as that sort of behaviour is not acceptable in the establishment. Not to be construed as support for any of this 'customer bad behaviour', but I have found that only a small percentage of 'service staff' are 'expert' at what they do. There is a very large amount of mediocrity, or worse.

2009 Jul 3
As a former server/bartender/assistant manager, I always try to make up for the butt heads out there.

If I am witness to another customer behaving badly for example in a store line up, I am usually the first to comment on the customer's behavior.

I feel so badly for young servers/clerks who just sit there and take it. Usually my first words to the clerk are "wow what a jerk- usually when the customer is still within ear shot. The clerk may have their hands tied regarding rude behavior but I sure don't.

2009 Jul 3
LWB, i didn't actually mean to limit my point to the "negative" character references, per se: not to get into a numbers game, there's more than 4 mentions of her strong constitution, her passion, etc., including ones that cast her in a favorable light. Enumerations aside, my general point is that the passion, energy and "educational" spirit she brings to the job is not apt to resonate w/ all paying customers. No biggie, no lives were lost, just a clash of perspectives and expectations (imo).

and to restate another point: i like her! And moreover, i tend to avoid referring to customer service, esp. to specific individuals, unless the service is criminally poor and/or a point of discussion already "out there" in previous reviews, etc.

PIO, good compromise.

2009 Jul 3
I agree with both PIO and I attempt to follow the same general approach as Pan, though I hate to put servers in said awkward situation of having to agree (insulting a customer indirectly) or disagree with a customer.

2009 Jul 3
shine.yahoo.com

an interesting take on "things waiters won't tell you". it's from yahoo so i'm taking it with a grain of salt.

2009 Jul 3
witchypoo: I was totally shocked to hear that. If I was the manager, I would have told the bigoted bastard that I stand behind the talents and hard work of my employees and if he has a problem with it, he can take his business elsewhere as I won't accommodate racism. Unbelievable that there are still people like that these days, especially in a city like Ottawa that is fairly culturally diverse.

What a total douche. There's no excuse for that kind of behaviour. At the very least, he could have kept his obnoxious sentiments to himself. *just amazed at the audacity of some people*

2009 Jul 4
Obviously as someone in the service industry, I don't like it when people are rude to me, however I do understand that my job is not JUST to cook food and ring people through a cash register, part of my job is also to represent my establishment to the best of my ability - which unfortunely also includes not responding in kind when someone is lacking in manners. Basically, whether it SHOULD be that way or not, part of my wage is paying me to put up with people's crap.

I was having a converstion with a co-worker the other day - we have a regular patron who comes in for breakfast almost every day (note: I currently work at a corporate lunch counter, so I both cook for and serve patrons directly). The exchange is as follows:

Worker: Good Morning!

Patron: MY BAGEL.

Worker: Certainly. Would you like creamcheese on that, or some peanut butter or jam?

Patron: SLAP HALF THE AMOUNT OF CREAMCHEESE ON THAN YOU GUYS USUALLY DO.

Worker: Certainly.

The patron without another word, abrubtly turns around and goes up to his office for 10 miunutes, because he cannot wait the 2 minutes that it takes to toast a bagel, then returns to pick it up without a word or a thank you.

This patron is so rude, that other patrons who have been standing there have mentioned it to me and my co-worker, and have expressed shock at how he speaks to us. Now, I would DEARLY like to respond with something along the lines of "Actually sir, when someone says "good morning" to you, the polite way of responding is to say "good morning" back - I'll just assume that was what you MEANT to say when you said "MY BAGEL". My co-worker, on the other hand fantasizes about pointing out frankly but politely to this patron that he has poor manners and that they are so bad that other people notice all the time.

My co-worker and I were talking about if there is any way to appropriately "confront" (for lack of a better word) this patron about his poor behaviour - she felt there was, I felt there was not. The thing is, IMO I feel it is not my job to give this man lessons in good manners and as a representative of my boss's establishment it is not my place. He is paying me to be polite to people, even when they are not polite to me. I would never stand for outright ABUSE of course, but this is the job I've chosen, so putting up with assholes who's parents didn't teach them any better comes with the territory. Not to say it's easy ;P

2009 Jul 4
FiH - IMO it would be a manager's job to talk to the rude customer

2009 Jul 4
Zym - The manager is not on the premises and does not deal with patrons at all. Again, I wouldn't expect anyone, including a manger to get involved for a case simple rudeness - if that was the case all they would be doing all day long is pointing out to people that they have bad manners.

2009 Jul 4
I think FiH is bang on -- the best thing for a service worker to do about rudeness is just ignore it. That sucks for sure, but to take action can hurt business.

If a patron is rude and they are told off for it he will likely take offense and then find some way to vent. Unfortunately for the rest of us, this venting can take place on feedback sites such as this one. (Though at least here we encourage the vendor to come and share his side of the story.)

I've seriously considered simply banning negative comments that do not provide constructive criticism. Back to the roots of OttawaFoodies: I don't want to waste my time reading about bad restaurants -- I just want tips on the good ones!

2009 Jul 4
One way to deal with rudeness like that is a convenient hearing problem. "Pardon me, I didn't hear you?"

2009 Jul 4
I'm afraid there's a big difference between rudeness and racism, I would tolerate the rudeness in FiH's example but the racism that Withcypoo describe should not be tolerated; it shouldn't always be about the money.

2009 Jul 5
racism should never be tolerated

a rude customer can sometimes be thrown out of kilter by being sickly sweet in return

sometimes nothing works and you just turn your back to it and go curse in the kitchen

2009 Jul 6
My incident was far, far from your incident which is clearly racist in nature. My wife also works in a call centre environment and every once in a while she gets those customers with racist sentiments, and I get just as annoyed as you do when she recounts.

I am not a racist. Neither has race got anything to do with my experience at Chahaya.

Secondly, I was not rocking on the chair back and forth. You are assuming that. I was sitting in the corner table hidden from the open view, and I moved back momentarily (less than 10 seconds) to see if the other waiter was looking in our direction and if I could get someone's attention to our table.

Thirdly, assuming I was the rude, out of line customer, and without hiding behind the "customer is always right" card, there is a way to handle such customers!

In my particular experience, from the moment I walked in to Chahaya to the moment I left, I was overwhelmed by the unwelcoming atmosphere. They didn't care that I was standing on the door, they didn't care if I stayed or left, they didn't care that my order was taken on time (30 mins wait, not a single acknowledgement of 'We'll be right with you!'), but she did find time to notice that I was "rocking the chair" and decided to push me in to correct my behaviour. Make your own conclusions.

I will probably not rock a chair at my grandma's house, but if I did lean back to reach out to something or talk to someone, she'd probably not crack a whip.

Lastly, no it is never ok to be rude, whether you are being served or the one serving.

2009 Jul 6
I think, (and correct me if I'm wrong), the point of the story of the racist customer was to describe the fact that the customer is not always right.

I don't see your actions as racist. But I do see your actions as having been immature, notably the fact that you were misusing the furniture and that you were speaking negatively of her in a voice that was clearly loud enough for her to hear.

Were you expecting her to ignore the fact that you were bad mouthing her? Her comment to the effect that she was "not ignoring you" could merely have been her way of saying "look, I can hear what you're saying and I don't appreciate you trash talking me in front of my customers". You're right, it is never okay to be rude, but as far as I'm concerned, talking about someone behind their back in front of their face is rude.

What leaves me wondering almost as the intial review, is the fact that a week later you continue to lambast the restaurant and its owners as though they owe you something.

Furthermore, you talk about having visited another restaurant the same night and having had an "overall nice experience". The goal of Ottawa Foodies is "connecting you to Ottawa's best food". So, why is it the only two reviews you've written have done nothing but berate the owners of the establishments?

2009 Jul 6
BTW, I wanted to post another incident recently that this discussion reminded me of.

On Canada day I happened to be around Parliament, and as I was going in through the gates with some other people (I didn't know them), this policeman came from the front saying "It's full, It's full, You can't go inside!" and started to push people back. Pushing = placing hands on them and forcing them out of the gates.

Now, the place was full, the man has a job, this is what he does, and in the mad rush of people, had he not been loud and forceful, many probably won't have listened to him or even paid attention to what he was saying. This was required of him. He couldn't stand in a corner and say, "Excuse me ladies and gentleman, please leave!". He just couldn't. It won't work. Not to mention that he is a policeman. In my opinion, that is not a service industry - it is a public safety institution.

Compare this to a restaurant situation. If you walk into a restaurant that's full, and a waiter comes out yelling and pushing people out of the restaurant. Would you compare the two situations and say he was justified just as the policeman? No you won't. Restaurants are part of a service industry.

This is what I mean by "service industry". Not I am some royalty and how dare thee speak to me that way, where's my red carpet, shine my shoes, etc. And this is where the line is drawn. We in the service industry are paid to be courteous (not my customers can walk all over me, but courteous!). That is part of the job description. If you're annoyed by this, you really should consider an alternate profession.

2009 Jul 6
@lady who brunches: I think I've written only one review and that is of Chahaya Malaysia. And I believe purpose of this site is to also ware people of potential bad experiences, is it not? *

"that you were bad mouthing her" <- another assumption

As a side, I wasn't aware of this forum before today. I will be deleting my subsequent message on Chahaya Malaysia page, but leaving my initial review with the complete details intact.

Have nothing against the owners; don't want them to go out of business or anything; but I was and I am extremely perturbed by my experiences at the restaurant. And I hope (and I have more than a feeling, they will) fix the problem.

*Correction: You're right, two reviews and they are both negative. I guess I should be adding some of my favourites here.

2009 Jul 6
Sigh... asadikhan, I think you've been misreading some of the sentiment on this website, and it's been fueling the impression that people are not taking you seriously. I think most people believe your story, more or less as told, but where they(we) differ is in the value of that story. There are many many people who come on here, post a single scathing review, and expect to be taken seriously. I for one added a 'believable' vote to your review, which had been tagged as 'questionable' as I thought you're comments were sincere. However, this is a community site, and if the only review you have given is a scathing review, that seems to be more about revenge for an unpleasant experience, than about reviewing restaraunts, then you will not be taken seriously. You have been a lurker for months reading reviews, but not seeing fit to contribute any yourself. The only measure I use for the value of a person's review, is how much I feel they are a good reviewer, which is totally not possible to judge with only one review, or comment. Submit more good reviews, participate in the forums a little less confrontationally, and your word will be given the value it deserves. Hopefully, you are one of the handful of people who came to this site with a bad experience, but contributed, and became a valued and trusted member, after discovering everyone wasn't out to dispute them, or harm their 'good words'.

2009 Jul 6
Hi Pete. Understood. I guess all I was expecting after posting my review (which was out of my own personal experience) was for it to just sit there and for people to read it and make their own conclusions. What I didn't expect was people specifically pointing back to my experience saying, we are annoyed by this, we are on the restaurant's side on this, you deserved it, etc.

Having said that, I will try to add positive responses for some of the restaurants - not so that I can be taken seriously - but because I actually realized after the last comment that there are some great restaurants here in Ottawa that I would love to put some light on. One being this amazing shawarma place (the best I've had in my life; including my time in the middle east). It is located inside the Galeries in Gatineau - not sure if this site is strictly for restaurants on the Ottawa side, but it is not far from Central Ottawa at all. Have to visit soon and confirm the name. I have a lot of family visiting from Toronto and I usually take them to this shawarma place (lighter lunch affair), and (used to) Chahaya for dinner.

2009 Jul 6
asadikhan, by all means do let us know about the shawarma place in Gatineau. Sharing little gems like that is what this site is most about! :-)

2009 Jul 8
For the record - as some who works in the service industry - I agree that if a patron is "abusing" the furniture or similar, it would be acceptable to ask them not to do so, it would not however, ever be acceptable to put your hands on them or "shove" them to force them to comply IMO, no matter how rude they may or may not be. Along the same lines, if a customer refused to comply with the request, it could potentially be acceptble to ask them to leave the establishment - it would not however, be acceptable to physically shove them out the door...

2009 Jul 12
If I was dining in this restaurant while this was happening, and if it was evident what was happening with these customers, I probably would have walked out right then and made it pretty clear why. I would not want to eat somewhere where they continue to serve these people.

Although, I agree with Pete-in-Ottawa that the best way to handle the situation from a management point of view may be to serve them "courteously" and then make it quite clear that they are not welcome back. But as a diner, that would be my reaction.

I worked in the service industry for many years and never dealt with racism. The only kind of "discrimination" I've witnessed is customers thinking newer employees are incompetent.