My Turn to Rant... [General]
2009 Apr 21
Good rant F&T, though my impression has not been as negative as yours. Maybe a little blip on the scale, but honestly I don't perceive it as being any different than it was.
As for what to do about it - perhaps a "terms and conditions" when someone signs up to the site. A very short one - because nobody ever reads the long ones :-)
As for what to do about it - perhaps a "terms and conditions" when someone signs up to the site. A very short one - because nobody ever reads the long ones :-)
2009 Apr 21
What happened is the website hit that critical mass where it's no longer this little place that a few people know about and invite their friends. You're getting traffic from all over the place, and that's going to include the good and the bad. :)
Restaurant Thing when it first started was actually fairly useful, until it hit it's own critical mass and suddenly it was chalk full of bad reviews, gripes from former staff, restaurants demanding reviews be removed, etc. No different here, just Mark handles it much differently than the person who used to run Restaurant Thing did.
I just ignore the reviews that are clearly made up, or from ex-employees with an axe to grind, or someone complaining about things that are well beyond the restaurant's control.
Restaurant Thing when it first started was actually fairly useful, until it hit it's own critical mass and suddenly it was chalk full of bad reviews, gripes from former staff, restaurants demanding reviews be removed, etc. No different here, just Mark handles it much differently than the person who used to run Restaurant Thing did.
I just ignore the reviews that are clearly made up, or from ex-employees with an axe to grind, or someone complaining about things that are well beyond the restaurant's control.
2009 Apr 21
There will always be shill posts or one-offs/disgruntleds. Food and restaurant experiences are very subjective. Overall the reviews on this site are of a much higher caliber...moreso than that other local Ottawa restaurant review site. Which is something to be proud of! Not to mention the forums here are an excellent source of information and discussion, and generally spam free (although some might classify chimi's stoner humour as spam).
"brb, popping popcorn"
"brb, popping popcorn"
2009 Apr 21
Food&Think Hear ye hear ye! The most recent review for Jazz'oo lounge really had me scratching my head. I was actually the one that created the link and although I was partial to the meal I ordered I was hoping for more reviews to see what others had to say about this place. I am not necessarily expecting glowing reviews but it almost sounds like new user 1734 ate at another restaurant. I can't speak for the wine/beer list but I can assure you that the restaurant was well staffed when I was there and the waitress provided pleasant and knowledgeable service. We also received laminated menus (maybe they don't have them anymore?) with no spelling mistakes and, although the menus were short, there was still enough nice selections to choose from. Despite the broad sweeping generalizations about this establishment (high turnover, low pay, no staff around, etc.) I still plan to give them a second chance. The thing I like most about ottawafoodies is that other reviewers usually provide constructive criticism so when I choose to try out a new restaurant I can get a general feel for the place. Which is why I no longer visit restaurantthing - I just get the feeling too many of their reviews are coming from disgruntled staff.
2009 Apr 21
I certainly take any review from "New User XXXX" with a heavy grain of salt but I've also seen a bit of a trend over the past few months for members to call out other members on their negative experiences. In some cases it's probably warranted but whose call is that to make? Self-appointed moderation can be just as tacky and it sullies the "buzz" section even more. Again, I think the core community here is capable of using its own discretion without having every bad review pointed out with a big red flag.
My alternate, as usual, take on things. :)
My alternate, as usual, take on things. :)
2009 Apr 21
Just as it disheartens me to know that a fellow user had a bad experience at one of my favourite vendors (of late, that has been Agave), I'm also just as likely to appreciate a negative review when my past experience says it is warranted.
I never wrote a review of Jazz'oo because it had been quite a while since I was there, but my experience in and of itself was quite atrocious. So, when 1734 came about and declared their distain of the place, I felt a bit as though my bad experience was brought to justice.
That said, I do try as best as possible to take everything that I read here with a grain of salt, regardless of whether it is a review or a forum post or something in the Wiki.
One of my favourite blogs, Offbeat Bride (oh, yes, can you tell I'm getting married? I read blogs. Wedding blogs. Eeep), has become mainstream despite the fact that that is the exact opposite of what it set out to do. However, in hitting its critical mass a few years ago, Ariel did the ever so wise thing of introducing to the website a FAQ page.
Now, I know that we have such a wonderful page on OF, called Help. And while I believe its probably a useful tool, I rarely refer to it. Why? Because, I believe I have all the answers (except how to put a damn link into a forum post so it just says vendor or food #). But I imagine that many people who come to this site don't think to visit such a page in the first place, and then any sort of etiquette (foodie or net wise) goes by the wayside. I'm all for organic conversation, but I realize there's also cause for regulation.
I think, F&T, you had mentioned that you were putting together a sort of OF etiquette of sorts, that you have spoken with Fresh Foodie about. I could see serious benefit to a small revamp of the Welcome! page, with a direct link to the FAQ section, or something to that effect.
I think it's great that the number of people who use the site is increasing so steadily and rapidly, it's just that a little bit of training in the use of this site goes a long, long way.
I never wrote a review of Jazz'oo because it had been quite a while since I was there, but my experience in and of itself was quite atrocious. So, when 1734 came about and declared their distain of the place, I felt a bit as though my bad experience was brought to justice.
That said, I do try as best as possible to take everything that I read here with a grain of salt, regardless of whether it is a review or a forum post or something in the Wiki.
One of my favourite blogs, Offbeat Bride (oh, yes, can you tell I'm getting married? I read blogs. Wedding blogs. Eeep), has become mainstream despite the fact that that is the exact opposite of what it set out to do. However, in hitting its critical mass a few years ago, Ariel did the ever so wise thing of introducing to the website a FAQ page.
Now, I know that we have such a wonderful page on OF, called Help. And while I believe its probably a useful tool, I rarely refer to it. Why? Because, I believe I have all the answers (except how to put a damn link into a forum post so it just says vendor or food #). But I imagine that many people who come to this site don't think to visit such a page in the first place, and then any sort of etiquette (foodie or net wise) goes by the wayside. I'm all for organic conversation, but I realize there's also cause for regulation.
I think, F&T, you had mentioned that you were putting together a sort of OF etiquette of sorts, that you have spoken with Fresh Foodie about. I could see serious benefit to a small revamp of the Welcome! page, with a direct link to the FAQ section, or something to that effect.
I think it's great that the number of people who use the site is increasing so steadily and rapidly, it's just that a little bit of training in the use of this site goes a long, long way.
2009 Apr 21
Ok, I`ve calmed down a bit... LOL
Thanks everyone for their input so far.
Here are some more thoughts, based on the posts so far...
Zym - I don`t know sure seems like there are more of these kinds of things in the last few months. But then again I always read the BUZZ Section and don`t just come straight to the FORUM... like some posters probably do. Used to be I enjoyed BUZZ because it was being used for the purpose it was designed Food & Vendor Reviews (lately even yourself have pointed out that some posts seem out of step).
Candice - I think you are right, volume is what is driving this whole issue... suddenly the whole world knows we exist. It just saddens me that there are now so many days that the "nutbars" show up... lets not even think about that other site. Pray we are not going in that direction!
Monty - Agree. Especially that things are subjective, I`ve just noticed a change in tone in the Reviews (especially by many no-name users) instead of taking the high road they swear (shitty food is always a favourite) or attack a previous poster etc. I`d just like to see us get back to regular Reviews, they certainly don't have to all be positive about the Vendor (honesty is fine), but it would be nice if the calibre was (or in the very least the language). BTW, what beer do I serve with popcorn?
Pasta Lover - I was so disappointed by that Review... it started out sounding like a genuine one... till I got to the part about all the employee stuff and insider info. I was convinced he worked there, and based on his writing, you aren`t even sure he ate there... either way another big pile of Baloney (goes well with Spam).
Ollie - Yes I think that "calling out" is definitely more apparent now than it ever was. Think though that it has to do with things like Pasta Lover pointed out, you read a Review, and you wonder based on the info provided if indeed the User has even been to the place. This is actually beneficial in my mind... because although I agree we can all make up our own minds about a Review or a Vendor, however having grossly inaccurate info... does everyone a disservice. If there are things that can be questioned (such as in the above example) then the result is that all of Review may be called into Question. Without Pasta Lover pointing out the fact that it looked like he never ate there... someone else might take the recent Review to be factual.
Of course calling some one out over name-calling or personal attacks is fair game in my mind. You are going to open an account and your first post is to call the previous Reviewer "stupid" or some other derogatory term isn't going to make a good impression. Then you are entitled to get as good as you give.
As for moderation, or what to do, that indeed is an issue. I agree that the Internet should be a free exchange of ideas... and not overly regulated, but at the same time, a basic code should ensue. Manners which were once upon a time part of all interaction, seem to have been lost... I don`t think we need a whole wack of rules, but I do think that as Zym pointed out some basic guidelines would be helpful. And in a way that they would be read (the latter is the key).
LWB - Yes, Fresh Foodie and I have talked about it before... be it a Welcome Page, FAQ or Netiquette Guidelines, but we thought we`d wait it out and see how things evolved. We agreed that neither of us thought it was needed immediately at the time I wrote it. I`m still torn on this. I`d like to think that common sense would prevail... but I don`t know any more. As we grow, so do the amount of these types of posts. In the past few months, I`ve seen several posters say that some of the stuff going on here is ridiculous (remembering our friend the Peeping Tom at Art-Is-In Bakery and those endless exchanges in the Reviews Section about this Vendor... should his posts have been given any merit at all?). Some posters I think have even lost faith in the Reviews Section, which once was a shining star of this site (vs other similar types of sites). Some posters have said they are taking a break while others seem to have stopped posting entirely. That is sad.
Thing is, if we do go ahead with some sort of written info will people read it (BEFORE posting) or will it be just another point & click the box kind of situation... perhaps the real "nutbars" couldn't care less. Will it give the site more credibility? Would the average poster find it helpful? Bottom-line Question is would things change?
Thanks everyone for their input so far.
Here are some more thoughts, based on the posts so far...
Zym - I don`t know sure seems like there are more of these kinds of things in the last few months. But then again I always read the BUZZ Section and don`t just come straight to the FORUM... like some posters probably do. Used to be I enjoyed BUZZ because it was being used for the purpose it was designed Food & Vendor Reviews (lately even yourself have pointed out that some posts seem out of step).
Candice - I think you are right, volume is what is driving this whole issue... suddenly the whole world knows we exist. It just saddens me that there are now so many days that the "nutbars" show up... lets not even think about that other site. Pray we are not going in that direction!
Monty - Agree. Especially that things are subjective, I`ve just noticed a change in tone in the Reviews (especially by many no-name users) instead of taking the high road they swear (shitty food is always a favourite) or attack a previous poster etc. I`d just like to see us get back to regular Reviews, they certainly don't have to all be positive about the Vendor (honesty is fine), but it would be nice if the calibre was (or in the very least the language). BTW, what beer do I serve with popcorn?
Pasta Lover - I was so disappointed by that Review... it started out sounding like a genuine one... till I got to the part about all the employee stuff and insider info. I was convinced he worked there, and based on his writing, you aren`t even sure he ate there... either way another big pile of Baloney (goes well with Spam).
Ollie - Yes I think that "calling out" is definitely more apparent now than it ever was. Think though that it has to do with things like Pasta Lover pointed out, you read a Review, and you wonder based on the info provided if indeed the User has even been to the place. This is actually beneficial in my mind... because although I agree we can all make up our own minds about a Review or a Vendor, however having grossly inaccurate info... does everyone a disservice. If there are things that can be questioned (such as in the above example) then the result is that all of Review may be called into Question. Without Pasta Lover pointing out the fact that it looked like he never ate there... someone else might take the recent Review to be factual.
Of course calling some one out over name-calling or personal attacks is fair game in my mind. You are going to open an account and your first post is to call the previous Reviewer "stupid" or some other derogatory term isn't going to make a good impression. Then you are entitled to get as good as you give.
As for moderation, or what to do, that indeed is an issue. I agree that the Internet should be a free exchange of ideas... and not overly regulated, but at the same time, a basic code should ensue. Manners which were once upon a time part of all interaction, seem to have been lost... I don`t think we need a whole wack of rules, but I do think that as Zym pointed out some basic guidelines would be helpful. And in a way that they would be read (the latter is the key).
LWB - Yes, Fresh Foodie and I have talked about it before... be it a Welcome Page, FAQ or Netiquette Guidelines, but we thought we`d wait it out and see how things evolved. We agreed that neither of us thought it was needed immediately at the time I wrote it. I`m still torn on this. I`d like to think that common sense would prevail... but I don`t know any more. As we grow, so do the amount of these types of posts. In the past few months, I`ve seen several posters say that some of the stuff going on here is ridiculous (remembering our friend the Peeping Tom at Art-Is-In Bakery and those endless exchanges in the Reviews Section about this Vendor... should his posts have been given any merit at all?). Some posters I think have even lost faith in the Reviews Section, which once was a shining star of this site (vs other similar types of sites). Some posters have said they are taking a break while others seem to have stopped posting entirely. That is sad.
Thing is, if we do go ahead with some sort of written info will people read it (BEFORE posting) or will it be just another point & click the box kind of situation... perhaps the real "nutbars" couldn't care less. Will it give the site more credibility? Would the average poster find it helpful? Bottom-line Question is would things change?
2009 Apr 21
Cheers, Food&Think, and thanks for the input everyone!
I do still have motivation to come up with some kind of rating system for posts, to enable users to vote down suspected shills and abusive postings. I'd be very careful implementing something like that though, because some injustices would inevitably result.
BTW, since day one (2006-Sep-19) every person who has signed up for an account here has made a promise to the community:
----------
By clicking the Submit button, you agree to do the following:
* Register for and use no more than one account.
* Declare your real first and last names (hidden by default)
* Treat other foodies with the same respect you expect from them.
* Treat vendors with the same respect you expect from them as a customer.
* Do not use unnecessarily coarse language. Kids like to eat too.
* Have fun, eat well, and enjoy life! :)
----------
I do still have motivation to come up with some kind of rating system for posts, to enable users to vote down suspected shills and abusive postings. I'd be very careful implementing something like that though, because some injustices would inevitably result.
BTW, since day one (2006-Sep-19) every person who has signed up for an account here has made a promise to the community:
----------
By clicking the Submit button, you agree to do the following:
* Register for and use no more than one account.
* Declare your real first and last names (hidden by default)
* Treat other foodies with the same respect you expect from them.
* Treat vendors with the same respect you expect from them as a customer.
* Do not use unnecessarily coarse language. Kids like to eat too.
* Have fun, eat well, and enjoy life! :)
----------
2009 Apr 22
I like the idea of integrating this with the post function, however Zymurgist's comment reminds me of a small issue I have with this site, and that is the rating system... specifically that it is based in part upon who adds you as a favourite. For example, When Kevin from Art-Is-In joined to chime in on that discussion a month or two ago, immediately I, FreshFoodie and a few others added them as a favourite. One post, and he was immediately rated "silver". While I see the merit in the rating system and even integrating it until one is listed as silver, per se, it's important to bear in mind that one's ranking is not solely based upon producing quality discourse in both the reviews and the forums...
2009 Apr 22
LWB - I hear ya, I've had an issue with the ranking system here on OF for awhile... particularly how some new members have been able to move thru the ranks pretty fast without really contributing enough content for them to be perceived as "valuable metals".
As I understand it, Fresh Foodie has been tinkering with the ranking system since day one... always trying to make it more meaningful for us the users... but finding the right combo of things is a challenge... Should it be based on Reviews, Forum Posts, the Respect of other Users (Fans), or a combo of all these things... or some other criteria? That is the 64 Million Dollar Question.
PS... Wouldn't we all love his job? Somedays I don't know how it does it.
I think the man is a saint.
As I understand it, Fresh Foodie has been tinkering with the ranking system since day one... always trying to make it more meaningful for us the users... but finding the right combo of things is a challenge... Should it be based on Reviews, Forum Posts, the Respect of other Users (Fans), or a combo of all these things... or some other criteria? That is the 64 Million Dollar Question.
PS... Wouldn't we all love his job? Somedays I don't know how it does it.
I think the man is a saint.
2009 Apr 22
Pete-In-Ottawa - Ok it isn't just me? I never understood that... I mean Reviews should be somewhat time sensitive (like within the last couple of months... but better still if under a month)... I don't really care if you ate at a place back in High School... I want to know what is happening in the Food Scene there now.... so stating when your visit was can be helpful. Sometimes I chuckle when I see those "10 Reviews in 5 Minutes" type of posts... I can't help but think this Poster must have had one busy weekend. LOL
Ok, I know my "twisted" sense of humour.
Ok, I know my "twisted" sense of humour.
Food&Think
"There`s a Fly in My Soup"
My otherwise perfect experience has been tainted...
Wasn`t the fault of the proprietor... nope just some mean tempered fly that decided he was going to land in the middle of my soup to ruin my fine day.
Not so long ago, Ottawa Foodies was a great site where fellow foodies met up to have a chat, pass on tips and learn about the Ottawa Food Scene. But in recent months it has taken a turn by seemingly attracting a high volume of people with a "chip on their shoulder" looking for somewhere to rant about the Ottawa Food Scene.
Seeing as they`ve all had their turn at our expense... I thought I might take this opportunity to rant about them...
I suppose part of this comes from the success of this site... we are now known extensively in the local media, to the point where we are often referred to when discussing the Ottawa Food Scene (thanks Ron Eade - Ottawa Citizen). And as of late we've been discovered by some media types even outside of Ottawa (The Food Channel etc).
With success and exposure... of course comes both the good & the bad.
The Good:
We are being "bookmarked" by more and more Vendors, Owners and Chefs these days, many of which not only keep tabs on what is being said about them on OF but also our thoughts on the Ottawa Food Scene as a whole. Some of those same Vendors, Owners and Chefs even take time out from their busy schedules to contribute from time to time... for which we are super grateful if not amazed... for hearing from them is certainly as good as attending a workshop where they'd be speaking (Thanks to Steve @ Beau's, Steve @ Beckta, Marc @ Atelier, Leroy @ Jean Albert`s and Karen @ Creemore, to name but a few).
Not to mention all the great posters here that contribute regularly giving their perspective of the Ottawa Foodie Scene from within the trenches... and the many many regulars that truly make this a "community".
But gosh, it is tiresome to also attract some who wish to undermine this whole great experience.
Does no one read the Mandate (front and centre on the Home Page) anymore?
We are a community of dedicated food enthusiasts sharing our knowledge of Ottawa restaurants, shops and individual menu items. Through hard work, mutual respect and an almost fanatical commitment to eating, we have created Ottawa's most comprehensive and accurate restaurant listing and food review site.
If you love food the way we do, we want your input. Sign up for an account so you can join in the fun!
It clearly spells out that we are a "community" and a happy bunch of folks (note the word fun).
The Bad:
In the last year, we seem to have been inindated with Spammers, Shills, Ex-Employees with an axe to grind, as well as the occasional disgruntled Vendor / Owner.
As well as people who just are outright rude on their first postings... how can insulting another User, swearing or name-calling be an effective first impression? I am pretty sure you wouldn`t act that way in person, so why do it here?
Mind you it has been somewhat entertaining at times... I've definitely have had my share of laughs (and Monty has popped a fair share of popcorn :-) no doubt). The gal who`s every second word in her post was a swear word... The crazy guy who thought it would be ok to trespass on a Vendors property to prove a point comes to mind... and my all time favourite the Vendor / Owner who had a total meltdown about a Review and got involved in what one could only equate as a Screaming Match in the 3D world with the OF Member who wrote it. LOL
These are of course the highlights from the lows... but there also has been a change in "attitude" where many others just come here with a "chip on their shoulder" rarely a positive word... always how bad the food is, how poor the service, and how this isn't Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, New York or Chicago.
For crying out loud, we know we are not any of those big cities... the commute across town at 5 o'clock any weekday afternoon will tell you that. What we are though is a great city with a wide diversity of cultures (did you know that almost 30% of Ottawa's population wasn't born in Canada?). And we excel in a variety of food cuisines, innovative ideas (Atelier for example) and amazing Festivals, all of which include food (looking forward to the upcoming Tulip Festival for that very reason).
As someone who has called Ottawa home most of my life, I am very excited how far we've come... and we don't roll up the sidewalks on Sunday's anymore... and you can order a beer without the famous plastic wrapped "For God Sakes Don't Eat It" Sandwich.
Can't we be proud of our city. Can't we continue to go out and discover new things... can't we just get back to the "positive" and "optimistic" outlook that Mark hoped for when he created this website? I know that he has said many a time he hoped that the Reviews Section would promote those Restaurants worth seeking out... and not be weighed down by the "negative".
And to Mark, I think all that has transpired here of late, must be disheartening to you at times, considering that which began as a hobby and a passion (not to mention the vision) has turned into hours upon hours of time you put into maintaining this site, and making it the best it can be for all of us to use... so despite of all these events in the last few months please know that the faithful Users of this "community" are all eternally grateful.
Of course this has come to a bit of a head this week with the release of the City of Ottawa Food Inspection Reports... tons more reasons to look for something "negative".
I admit I don`t know the solution to the "growing pains" we seem to be enduring, but I look forward to the day when the Reviews will get back to talking about the great experiences we`ve had with Food, Wine, Beer and Friends and less about the "nutbars" (foodie appropriate word) who constantly seem to hijack the Reviews Section on this Website for their own personal agenda.
Yes the fly in my bowl of soup bothers me... but one little old fly doesn't necessarily mean I am about to give up on the whole Restaurant Scene just yet... I am going to keep an eye on it... so a warning to any other nasty flies who happen to come my way... I am keeping a huge honking flyswatter at hand.
Cheers!
Food & Think