Ottawa Foodies

Back a few years (circa 1985), The fancy pancy restaurant at the top of the Westin Hotel (I think it was called Season's), had a dress code.

I took a girlfriend there on a date, one evening. When we met the Maitre Di on the way in, he informed us that the dinner service requires a suit or sports jacket. I was sooo embarrassed, espcially with the condescending tone from the Maitre Di. I already had a nice shirt and tie on, so he gave me a 'house supplied' jacket to wear.

Once I got over that fact that no one was starring at me, We both ejoyed our well prepared French nouveau cuisine and .... my date ended up marrying me a year and a half later.


Does anyone know of any existing dress codes, at any of the Ottawa restaurants ?
Or maybe would like to share a similar experience.

CC that sounds like it's straight out of a romantic comedy!

Never happened to me but most of the time when I go to a "fancier" restaurant it's a business function, so I'm already wearing a suit and tie. If I go out with my girlfriend, I'll lose the jacket and tie and just wear a collared shirt and khakis/chinos

This might make a good tag to add ...

Well, Rideau Club has a dress code, if I remember correctly... I can't think of any easily, publicly accessible restaurant the enforces a dress code in Ottawa anymore. I ate at the restaurant on the Hill and I don't remember there being a strict dress code, though it was expected that people dress appropriately, ie. smart casual or whatever people call it (not necessarily enforced).

Does anyone know if Beckta's got a dress code ?

Need this info for the Ghetto Gourmet Night where the attire could be "Hobo", "Squeegie-kid", "Street Walker", "Busker" etc....

Check it out here: ottawafoodies.com

Beckta most definitely does not have a dress code. I'll bring my folk guitar to play the busker/wino type. It must be noted though, that for a fine-dining establishment, it is very unpretentious. The owner is very approachable and their waitstaff are very accomodating... just wonder if they'll have a place to hang my Misfits/Dead Kennedy's/Clash/Sex Pistols patchwork jacket? ;)

Beckta ? Very unpretentious ? ahhhhh ... one of the goals of the event was to 'raise a few eyebrows' ...

Can we find a more pretentious spot (with Bring Your Own (Jug of) Wine) ? One , where we can thumb our noses at 'The Man'.




You know what ...
I think maybe, deep inside, I want 'revenge' on the Maitre Di who embarresed me at the Westin , so many years ago. (See my original entry on this topic)




and Chimi, you have a Misfits/Dead Kennedy's/Clash/Sex Pistols patchwork jacket.... kewl ... Sid Vicious (Sex Pistols) and Joe Strummer (Clash) RIP

What's an appropriate dress for Juniper ?

EDIT: can I wear shorts as long as they are nice ones?

What about sneakers?

May be too late, but I'd probably go a bit dressier than shorts, but sneakers are fine?

But it's summer. Not even nice shorts? Not my usual cutoffs?

Someone gave us a gift certificate and this is really not our kind of place. Especially so if I can't even wear shorts - holy moly really?

Well, "really" is a bit plastic here in Ottawa. I don't think anybody'll turn you away unless it's explicitly a "jacket only" place.

Me? I'd not wear anything less dressy than jeans in a place like Juniper, but that may not reflect everybody's thinking.

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I always think that proper dress code is important when going to a restaurant. You definitely don't want to ruin other customers' appetite. I remember a dining story that my friend told me and I laugh every time I think of this story:

It was summer last year. Very hot day! He and his wife went to a Chinese restaurant at Merivale for dinner. A male customer across their table wore a tank top (like those white underwear type tank top). His armpit was itchy and he scratched it. My friend saw his hairy armpit and lost his appetite! My friend told me that he hasn't returned to that restaurant for a long time after that event.

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Well, I certainly wasn't proposing to show up at Juniper in a wife-beater Ashley. I get that much. And clearly a t-shirt would not be cool. What about a nice pair of shorts and a golf shirt? Is that going to wreck it for everyone else? ( And if it is, oh-boy is this the wrong place for me )

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Zym, I don't think there's anything wrong with smart shorts and a golf shirt. For me a restaurant is like the work place, I don't want to see men's feet or shoulders - that means no wife beaters, and no sandals or flip flops. Also, I don't like to see sportswear - no running shoes, and no football / hockey / basketball shirts.

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I'm with Johnny. Although, I don't pay much attention to what other people are wearing with the exception of the stray WTH was h/s thinking,did they not look in the mirror before leaving the house thought

Zym, my husband and I are regulars at Juniper, albeit for drinks and jazz so we're always in the bar/lounge area. I notice that people coming for dinner are usually quite dressed up, but my husband has gone in shorts and felt comfortable in the bar area. I think if we were planning on sitting at a table for a meal he'd likely skip the shorts, but he'd still be in jeans with a dressier shirt. The staff at Juniper is very approachable and easygoing so I wouldn't worry with your choice of dress so long as you yourself feel comfortable.

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Can't go wrong with a Robert Graham shirt.

Any Restaurant ... any time . Tres hipster. ... but something for every man ... including those who wear wife-beaters underneath.

List price $200-$400.

Current eBay listings in the price $0-55$ range.

Link ---> www.ebay.com

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That's a big leap from St Vincent de Paul, Captain Caper, which is where I normally get my dress shirts.

But I've been in need of some short sleeve summer dress shirts and the pickings have been pretty slim there lately, so I splurged and went to MEC. The sale rack of course- can't afford full price even for their shirts :-) The one I wore last night I can't seem to locate on their website but it was regular about 40 bucks on sale for about 25. Wow, I am totally sold on them in any case, it is easily the most comfortable dress shirt I've ever worn. Not sure what it is about it but it sure is nice. And it has several breathing vents on the back that sort of bellows open but aren't really visible. The one I got was a tan plaid colour and they also had one in blue - I'll definitely be going back to get the blue one.

www.mec.ca

is that it?

5

getting 'dressed up' and going out for a night on the town is slowly becoming a lost art. it's really noticeable in Ottawa at places like the NAC - you see old dudes rocking tuxedos sitting beside people in Birkenstocks and shorts.

personally i think it feels good to go out once in awhile, enjoy a nice meal, and get shitfaced while wearing a suit. i mean, how bad ass was airplane travel back in the 1960s?

This shirt: www.mec.ca ;)

Yup, that's it

BTW MEC has a number of dress shirts on sale right now, and they are open today

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Just to be clear. That's NOT a dress shirt (well ... it may be to you). It's really a casual shirt.

A dress shirt comes in a collar size (to ensure closure for the tie!) and sleeve length.

(Over the years I bought shirts from MEC that contained natural RENEWABLE fibers.
I wonder why such a 'green' co-op has gone mostly NON-RENEWABLE petroleum based clothing ?
Cotton ... 2 crops per year. Microfibre(tm) ... 1 crop per 350 million years. Performance ?
Long wear-ability ? at what REAL cost ?
Plastic clothes for plastic people!)

7

I really like going to places where people dress for dinner; I'm not going to wear a tie to Union 613, but I will to the Shore Club. If I'm going somewhere for a celebratory dinner, I will dress up, and just because some patrons are wearing golf shirts or flip flops, I don't view that as a licence to do the same. In the Ottawa area there are a couple places with a dress code I can think of: Baccarat and Chateau Montebello, both on the Quebec side. I have 2 experiences with people being forced to wear "loaner" jackets. Baccarat, where one of our guests who didn't believe they meant him when we told him the dress code was loaned a pleasant enough navy blazer. At Montebello however, a boorish relative obstinately refused and said "If I'm paying $200 for dinner I deserve to be comfortable and they won't dare keep me out." Well they did refuse him entry, and I'm sure in no small part because of his attitude, they loaned him a humiliating orange plaid jacket. They did allow him to hang it on the back of his chair once he was seated, but forced him to parade through the dining room in it. So I guess it's only common sense to consider context when selecting what to wear to dinner. I think a meal in a michelin starred restaurant is only enhanced when one's fellow patrons are well dressed.

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Well if that is not a dress shirt I really don't want to go anywhere that a dress shirt is required.

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Oh Zym, ... Don't worry .... Juniper's won't refuse you in that shirt from MEC.

So go and make a reservation for Juniper's to spend that $100 gift certificate you're sitting on.

And go and get your Mrs. in her glad rags (she must have some .. being THE refashionista )and make it a night on the town (sans kids). A real date.

You guys both deserve it !

(If you can do Tennessy Willems and feel comfy ... then you down east country-bumpkins can do Juniper's ... just don't park your family van next to all those Beamers at Otto's !)

Nah, we just aren't interesting in Juniper at this point - we both came to that realization independently yesterday morning. We had a great time at the Hintonburg Public House last night. We'll sit on that Juniper certificate until someone buys it. $35 a main on the low end just isn't us. Besides, no way we could have a good time at those prices unless we were willing to drop another $100, which we are not.

So in short - someone please buy our certificate for $90 :-)

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Hahaha... zym, your rejection of the Juniper experience suggests you are snobby about being not snobby!

My father is the same way and I grew up poopoo-ing people who lived more luxuriously than we did, so I recognize it. :-)

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Well I'd be happy to go there if I had a $200 gift certificate Fresh Foodie. I don't have the money to go to a place like that and it just does not make sense to spend $100 ( plus another $50 to $100 on a new wardrobe just to get in the door) so that I can enjoy myself with a "free" gift certificate. Looking at the menu online it looks to me like it would be pretty difficult to go there and have a good meal with $100 for 2 people.

If I'm going to spend $100 it will be at a place that I really want to go to.

And BTW Fresh Foodie, I don't think your comment is fair because I have not said anything whatsoever to poo-poo those who are better off than me. If someone can afford to go there and likes going there, good for them. Even if I could afford it I probably would not. I don't own a suit, and until I got my most recent job in November I did not own any kind of shirts except T shirts (and 1 golf shirt). That's what I like to wear, and if I ever got a chance to go out somewhere (which is exceptionally rare - the other night was our first date without kids in about 5 years), I'd like to go somewhere where people can dress like that if they want and not be out of place. It does not make sense to me to go out somewhere to have a good time and go to a place where I have to pretend I'm something I'm not. That by definition is not having a good time.

And even though I did buy a nice shirt and shorts to go to the Hintonburg Public House, there were others there in jeans and t-shirt and they did not look the least bit out of place nor did anyone look at them as though they were out of place.

And for the record (because I know someone is thinking it) it is not a matter of sour grapes either. 10 years ago I was making over $100,000 a year and my wife was making a good sum in the government. In today's dollars our combined income was likely in the $175,000 range. Even then we could not justify going out to high-priced restaurants because it just wan't us. So today making substantially less than that (less than half that) I am confident in saying it is not a matter of sour grapes - i.e. poo-pooing something I can't have anyway. Even when I could have had it, I was not interested.

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When I first came to Ottawa as a co-op student, I finagled a lunch with my Member of Parliament at the Rideau Club. First my taxi driver took me to the Rideau Curling Club, which I told him didn’t look like the right place. When I did get to the right club, the Maitre D approached me with a (somewhat) discrete “Sir, gentlemen must wear a jacket in the dining room.” He ushered me into a changing room and fitted me for a loaner (I was already wearing a shirt and tie that I thought was plenty formal for lunch). When my MP arrived and we headed into the dining room, the same guy appeared at my shoulder and stage whispered “sir, your bag!” which apparently meant I couldn’t take a briefcase in with me. He whisked it away.

So if you do get invited to the Rideau Club, heads up: Jackets required. Bags not permitted (I’ve learned that you can stash them in the changing room). Now that I’m older and wiser, I laugh about it and I like telling the story. But at the time it made me feel small and self conscious, which I get the sense it was intended to do. When planning events/meals I go out of my way to make sure nobody will feel that way.

10

Just remember - it's impossible to be over-dressed in a suit and tie. It looks as good in the local pub as it does in a three star restaurant.

Every man should own at least one suit, and should never feel self-conscious wearing it. It's easy to remove your jacket and tie and roll up your sleeves if it turns out to be appropriate to dress down a little, but it's nigh on impossible to make a Coors light T-shirt, relaxed fit Levis and running shoes look anything other than scruffy.

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Johnny English well said. And suit dressing is so much easier. A good navy or charcoal suit, a few white shirts and a few ties can take you almost anywhere without a whole lot of thought about what to wear. And I have found that when you wear a suit, you tend to get different treatment: better tables at restaurants, undeserved upgrades on flights, access to nightclubs where you are probably otherwise too old or uncool to get past the velvet rope, etc. Probably not fair, but that has been my experience. I did also see a NY Maitre D interviewed on TV who said that he appreciated patrons who dressed well, as it demonstrated that they put a high value on the total experience.

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Fine I suppose, if you like wearing a suit. Which I do not. Don't feel comfortable in one.

And yeah, I supposed I'd treat someone differently in one too - but the opposite of your experience. One of my mottos is "never trust a suit"

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I'm with Zym on this one (high five!) Some people look great in suits, others don't. I'm in the latter group. I've always felt uncomfortable in a suit, and end up looking like a fat, pissed off metal nerd. The dressiest I get is a dark patterned shirt and suede jacket instead of my usual subversive tees and heavy leather (I save my f-bomb shirts for the bar scene). If that means my money's not good enough for a few niche establishments, too bad. If some people think less of my professional capacities due to my appearance, too bad. Either way, I'm not starving.

I don't think any less of people who dress and groom in classic fashion, it's just not my thing. To expect everyone to conform to such a narrow image, in order to enjoy a cooked meal, now that I find just plain offensive. What if I required all of my clients to wear a t-shirt that says "uncle with benefits" ? Not the same ? To some of us, it's exactly the same.

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I've been thinking more about this and especially about the notion that how someone else is dressed at a restaurant can afford another person's meal. Notwithstanding the sweaty guy in the wife beater - we'll call that a public health issue and a matter of cleanliness. But what about a guy in a new plain green t-shirt and a pair of tan coloured cut off shorts with the ends rolled up so they don't look jagged. New shorts.

To me that argument seems amazingly identical to the argument that someone else's gay marriage has a negative impact on my straight marriage.

I'm also curious why it seems to be OK to see a woman's shoulders, but not a man's. What if the woman doesn't shave her armpits? Still OK?

5

What's ironic is that some of the people who 'think' they're dressing up, in a 80's hairdo, and a not so vintage 90s dress. Are actually more off putting to me than the fellow in his tank top. At least that is a style that never goes out.. But neither of them are going to bother me or my lunch, that's just damn idiotic.

When I look around at lunch or a business dinner, I often cringe at what people are wearing.. A pig in lipstick is still a.. :D I kid...

I'm in agreement with Zym and Bill.

I do dress up when required, but not when it's on my time and my dollar. I personally don't find it adds to the experience, it's not that I'm out of my element. I just don't care to sort another suit, because I want out of the one I'll have wore in the day. Then to have the Ms spend what will seem like two hours getting ready. All to go out for dinner. To then experience a shoddy tasting, over presented, thus over priced meal... Really???

Dinner, to me is an establishment catering to me. Service being provided to me, at my expense. The barrier to entry is my money.

Sounds arrogant.. but these are the core facts.

I understand, many people go for the ambience, the music, the outing itself, and then, lastly the food.

To each his own.

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@Zym - for the same reason that a woman wearing a knee length skirt is acceptable in pretty much any environment, a man wearing a knee length skirt is not. Men and women are different, everything doesn't have to be the same to be equal.

I don't care what people wear to the pub, but when I'm spending several hundred dollars on a meal for two at, say, Atelier, I want and expect it to feel a bit special. Having a bloke at the table next to me dressed like he's going to the cottage for the weekend reduces that feeling, and that's why higher end restaurants have dress codes. Even if they don't, it's your responsibility as a diner to dress appropriately and not impact others' enjoyment of the occasion, just as it's inappropriate in such an environment to allow small children to run around as you might at a neighbourhood diner, or to speak at the sort of volume you might do sitting in front of a hockey game at the pub.

It's all about context. What is entirely fine in one establishment might not be so appropriate at another - one size does not fit all.

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What about a kilt? I got married in a kilt.

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One of the things I love about Atelier is that there is no dress code, and in fact, I am sure they would just want you to dress comfortably... It is a 2.5-3 hour meal/experience. If people are so focused on judging what other people are wearing while out for a meal, I'm not sure that they are being entirely present to their own dining experience with their partner or group of friends.

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@Johnny English : actually, I think a man in a kilt would be considered appropriate in pretty much any environment ;-)

I know, that's not the same as a skirt... but, really, any restaurant trying to discriminate against someone for wearing clothes "that are not appropriate for his gender" needs to get into the 21st century in a hurry. What is that if not discrimination based on gender?

Personally, as long as the clothes are clean and are not so skimpy or see-through that they could not show them in a G movie, then I don't care what other people wear at dinner... or anywhere really. I especially don't care if it's "fashionable" or not. Color blind people are allowed to eat out too ;-p

I've eaten fast food in an evening dress and a cape. I've eaten at Les Fougères in hiking gear (hey, it's near Gatineau Park). I've worn chainmail in a restaurant (and it wasn't one of those medieval themed places).

I try to follow rules when they are posted, but really, the lines between "smart casual", "business" and "formal" wear seem rather blurry for feminine clothing, so I just take a guess. I've never been told anything about my clothing by restaurant employees. What would they do if I guessed wrong? Lend me a jacket if my dress was not formal enough? they can't really have "loaner dresses".

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This from Chimichimi : If people are so focused on judging what other people are wearing while out for a meal, I'm not sure that they are being entirely present to their own dining experience with their partner or group of friends.

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Well, that's not my point at all. What I said was, I don't want to see shoulders, feet or sportswear in a reasonable quality restaurant. I don't think that's being particularly unreasonable. To suggest that other people have no effect upon the dining experience is ridiculous - are you suggesting that the experience is identical regardless of whether the restaurant is packed full, or you're the only person in there?

Would you go to a wedding wearing shorts, sandals and a T-shirt? After all, it's none of anyone else's business what you're wearing, is it? Would you walk into someone's house and refuse to remove your shoes just because you don't remove your shoes in your house? Of course not. We all conform to appropriate conventions because it's the correct, proper and polite thing to do.

The discrimination tag is also bollocks, by the way. Lots of places have dress codes, not just restaurants - nightclubs, golf courses, hotels - and as with restaurants, the higher the quality the more restrictive the dress code. They're private establishments and they reserve the right of admission. Sure, a lot of places will let you in even though you may be dressed completely inappropriately, but that doesn't make someone less of a tool for giving an establishment and its patrons the metaphorical finger. If you don't like the accepted convention, you should probably eat elsewhere.

5

In my opinion, the sign of a truly classy establishment is the ability to make the paying customer feel comfortable, welcome, and at-home...no matter what he or she is wearing.

Hosting staff who pooh-pooh patrons who do not wear jackets, embarassing them by having them wear Don Cherry's hand-me-downs? Not cool. I understand the desire to have a certain degree of class and formality in your establishment, but not at the expense of the people who are paying to be there. If someone shows up and isn't dressed the way they "should" be dressed, then I would hope that the professional staff involved would roll with it.

I've eaten at some pretty fancy places, and while I did dress up "accordingly", there were others who decided to be a little trendier...and I guess in London, "unwashed-heroin-addict-chic" was in at the time or something. Anyway, the maître d' didn't bat an eye. Gracious, generous hosting is where it's at -- not alienating based on appearances (and I won't even get into gender discrimination, which was mentioned. Yikes). From what I've always been taught, proper etiquette also includes civility and grace, not just jamming proper etiquette down someone's throat...kind of defeats the purpose of said etiquette lesson, IMO. Good front-of-house staff know that.

As for the other patrons giving someone the evil eye, there's not much you can do about that...you're not paying for someone else's dining experience, just your own. They're paying their way, as well...so they can dress how they want, think what they want, and behave how they want, as is their right. I think there are two discussion points here -- how the restaurant responds and how other patrons respond to an "improperly-dressed" customer. I guess it's in the same stream as the age-old 'no kids in the restaurant' thing.

Anyway, now that I think about it, I imagine this sort of thing comes up in Las Vegas restaurants fairly regularly. Has anyone ever been? I bet there are some good stories in there about customer wardrobes.

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If the quality of your dining out experience is being defined by the clothing choices of people around (and completely unrelated to) you, I fear you might be missing out on something. Just enjoy your meal with yourself and your companions, and have compassion for those fortunate enough to be sharing that experience with you at that establishment. I guess I'm an equal opportunity patron?

4

I'm in agreement with all the posts upthread: it is an establishment's right to set a dress code if they wish, and it is a patron's right to take their business elsewhere if they wish. In my experience, dress codes are about promoting a certain ambiance and code of conduct, and I'm fine with that; what I'm not fine with is an establishment that looks down on those who don't conform to their sense of style.

My own definition of dressing up actually includes so-called designer jeans paired with Louboutin heels and a silk blouse. I also don't believe that a man needs a suit to be dressed up: my husband doesn't care for suits, wore a kilt and custom made silk shirt when we got married, and owns a few Robert Graham shirts for dressy occasions. Will our definition of "dressed up" make the cut 100% of the time? Probably not, and for the times when it is mandatory that men wear suits and women wear full length gowns, and nothing else will do, we will respect the convention, politely decline the invite and head to The Welly for a beer. ;o)

All this said Zym, I'm wondering if you've been hasty to dismiss Juniper because of a perceived dress code: you sound to me like the kind of respectful, respectable person who knows how to comport himself in public, and I'm certain whatever you chose to wear would be just fine by both the staff and your fellow diners.

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Zym should check out Juniper just for the experience. Wear what you like, they don't have a dress code.

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Too late, the certificate is gone.

Bottom line is that I could have 2 dinners out elsewhere for the price of 1 at Juniper. If I were to use that certificate I'd have to add at least another 100 bucks to it out of my own pocket, so it was not so much a $100 gift it was a 50% off coupon.

And also we'd sooner stay directly in the hood. There are a number of new places within walking distance of our house that we have not tried yet but really would like to.

Maybe when I get my small inheritence (never can seem to spell that) in the next few months I'll decide to go there, who knows.

Johanna - yes I can definitely hold my own in any crowd bar none. But see above, 2 for 1 does it for me almost every time :-)

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Sorry, but i couldn't resist....

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It is about an establishment's ambience. I don't want someone coming into Baccarat in a golf shirt and sandals trying to prove a point, just as I wouldn't want someone showing up in a pink lacoste in a leather bar. It's not about snobbery. I am reminded of going out with some friends in Texas who told me I would be laughed out of a bar if I wore a belt with such a small buckle on my jeans.

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When I go to a fine dining, it is usually a night out with my husband.
I like to dress up for him because it's our date.
If I wear a little black dress and he wears t-shirt,shorts and sandals...I think we kinda look silly.
My husband understand my point so he dress up for me, I am very happy that he cares.
It is fun to pick dress shirt and tie for him and pick my shoes and dress to match his suit.
I think it is not really a restaurant dress code, it's our dress code.

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I don't fuss over what others wear at restaurant, but purfume...I really don't want to smell strong perfume at any restaurants :(

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Also, just for the record I didn't say that men should wear a suit to a nice restaurant, I said that you can't go wrong in a suit. Depending on weather, company and a whole host of other variables, my attire for a good quality restaurant would could be jeans and a nice shirt, polo shirt and chinos, sport jacket and slacks, or a suit. The only things that will remain constant are proper shoes and a collar of some kind. If you're wearing proper shoes (i.e. not sandals or running shoes, and not those bloody sneaker/hiking shoe hybrids that Ottawa seems to love so much) and a shirt with a collar, whatever is in between is likely to be fine.

7

You're all looking at this the wrong way. Being well-dressed lends an air of respectability to a person who could otherwise be considered somewhat of a scoundrel...at least that is why I always try to dress well in public...haha

For the record I'm with JohnnyE, and nobody in this crowd certainly wants to hear my specific politics on the matter which go something along the lines of - "Shorts on a man? In public?! What is this, a basketball game?"

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Wow, Johnny English, so you're even bothered by what shoes people wear? Really, my feet are under the table, it's easy to ignore them. I've actually worn hiking boots to le Baccara (with a nice suit) and no one batted an eye. Sorry, but I have feet and sometimes ankle problems.

I don't wear pointy little shoes with heels. Shoes, to me, are meant to help me walk, not to look pretty. I do sometimes wear flat sandals. They seem totally appropriate to me if it's summer and my feet don't hurt too much. And you could stare at my feet all night in a restaurant, I wouldn't go change shoes. But maybe I'm just too good at ignoring stares? I mean, I already stand out a lot just eating alone in many places...

As for your comment on "private establishment reserving the right of admission", your interpretation of the rights it gives them seems a little overly broad to me. You may think the bill of rights is "bollocks", I don't ... Yes, private establishments can certainly impose a dress code. But they can't make that dress code different for men and women, or for gays and straights, or for 30 years old and 40 years old. Or, worse, decide that some of those "categories" of people are just not allowed in. Sure, some do it anyway. And most clients who get told they don't "fit" will just walk away and take their business elsewhere. But sometimes someone will sue. Or, even better, sometimes the story will go public and really hurt their business (ok, if they're in the US, being prejudiced might apparently improve their business, but I dare hope that wouldn't happen here...)

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Congratulations, you've made a significant effort to deliberately misinterpret every single thing I've said, and you have done a magnificent job of it.

By the way, I look forward to you quoting the section of the Bill Of Rights that prevents restaurants from insisting that men wear a jacket and tie.

"...those bloody sneaker/hiking shoe hybrids that Ottawa seems to love so much"

@Johnny English: LMAO! Please pretty please.... please post a pic of the shoes you're talking about!!!

Is this the footwear you're talking about... along with one's best Lululemon wear???

5

There are two schools of thought on this and both are correct in their own way... that's why you're all bickering so much! :-)

First of all, there's no law that dictates how you dress as long as you cover up most of your naughty bits. A private establishment can legally enforce a dress code if they like. I'm reminded of the Cathedral of Barcelona where my wife was not permitted entry a few weeks ago because her shoulders were showing. (Yes, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, my wife is a whore. I'm quite proud of her.) So you are within your rights to wear whatever the hell you want providing you follow the rules of the establishment you are patronizing... everyone else be damned.

Aisu Kurimu described the second school of thought very well. You dress up to look your best for others. Whether it be for your spouse or people in general, you are doing it as a gesture of respect. As an added bonus, most people feel good when they look their best.

Compare it to free speech. Sure, you can swear and scowl *legally*, however it is more respectful to those around you to be polite and smile.

Aim to overdress rather than underdress. If you underdress, you are probably poor, clueless, or lazy. Being poor is a good excuse; the others are not.

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Johanna, that's on the right lines but it's a bit too much a proper hiking boot. I was thinking more of this sort of thing:------------------->

Yes, they may be very comfortable, and yes, they may be quite practical when there's snow on the ground, but they look absolutely bloody awful. I have a pair similar to this but I wouldn't dream of wearing them when I'm going out for dinner.

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This conversation is so entertaining! Thank you everyone.

I'm more the Zym than Johnny type. I dress to be comfortable. Sometimes it is a skirt to the fry truck and jeans to the restaurant, sometimes it is the other way around. I hate seeing anyone's armpits in a restaurant - servers or guests. Gross.

If it is really good food, then I dress to accommodate all the eating I want to do. We call those "buffet pants" ;)

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Wow. Food first. Want the food? Dress the part. I hate suits and I hate sandals. Deal.

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Sorry for taking so long to answer Johnny English's question, I was away for the weekend.

First, I did not say that restaurant can't insist men wear a jacket and tie, just that any such rule should in theory apply to all. So if both my husband and I show up in a jacket and tie, they (legally) can't say I have wear a dress instead because I'm a woman. Now, I don't actually own a tie. I was just saying that, AFAIK, irt is illegal for a restaurant to apply different rules to men and women.

As requested, here is the part of the Ontario Bill of Rights that says that you can't discriminate based on gender (and other things) :

1. Every person has a right to equal treatment with respect to services, goods and facilities, without discrimination because of race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, age, marital status, family status or disability.

And the Quebec one is rather similar.

11. Every person has a right to full and equal recognition and exercise of his human rights and freedoms, without distinction, exclusion or preference based on race, colour, sex, pregnancy, sexual orientation, civil status, age except as provided by law, religion, political convictions, language, ethnic or national origin, social condition, a handicap or the use of any means to palliate a handicap.

(I know there are probably some sorts of exceptions for religious establishment (and Fresh Foodie's example is also in a different country), and of course those rules don't apply to a private dwelling. You could decide that men have to wear blue and women green to enter your house.)

And, of course, many places do discriminate. As I've said, most people being discriminated against will simply choose to take their business elsewhere. They have better things to do than taking people to court all the time.

Other than this consideration, yes, restaurants can indeed impose a dress code. I personally think it's a bit silly, but I'll generally try to follow it.

But, really, if someone is dressed in a way that didn't make restaurant employees refuse them entry, and the mere sight of their clothing bothers you... Well, we're just very different people I guess. I can completely understand being bothered by smells (perfume or other), by guests being loud or behaving badly, but I just can't understand how the fact that someone at another table wears a t-shirt or shoes that you find ugly can impact your enjoyment of your meal.

There, I think I've said all I could possibly have to say on the subject. I'll try to stick to talking about food now.

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dis·crim·i·na·tion/disˌkriməˈnāSHən/
Noun:
The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

Asking people to adhere to a dress code is not discrimination. The fact that the dress code differs for men and women is not discrimination, as both are subject to said dress code. Good luck with bringing a case, you'd be laughed at by the courts.

That said, few restaurants have a set dress code these days or use it to control admission other than the usual "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy that applies to every establishment. What we're talking about is less the restaurant enforcing a dress code, and more the responsibility that people have to their fellow diners.

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OK, I told myself I would stop arguing with you, but I just can't let that one go :

"Asking people to adhere to a dress code is not discrimination. The fact that the dress code differs for men and women is not discrimination, as both are subject to said dress code. Good luck with bringing a case, you'd be laughed at by the courts. "

Really? You really think that a dress code that mandates different clothes for men and women is not discriminatory?

So a dress code that said that men have to dressed in blue and women in pink is not discriminatory?

What about a dress code that says men have to wear a beard and women have to be dressed in black clothing that covers their entire body, including their face?

I must say that I completely disagree. I can accept "you can't wear that in here" much better than "you can't wear that in here, because you are a women".

As for being laughed at by the courts, well, I seem to remember that this is not what happened in the Ontario courts when a woman contested a fine received for being outside without a shirt. I think she won. No, it didn't change much in anyone's life. But I don't find it laughable that she defended what is, in my mind, a very valid point.

That last comment in your post just reflects your entire attitude towards me in this thread anyway. While I tried to have a polite conversation, giving examples to support my arguments and explaining my opinions and how they differed from yours, the general tone in your replies is simply demeaning, always stating that my opinions are ridiculous, that I should be laughed at, that I'm missing or deliberately misinterpreting every single point you make. Maybe your level of English is above my mere second language capacities, but I re-read everything several times, and I can't find a different way to interpret what you wrote, sorry.

So I'll do what I do when I'm confronted with rude people in a restaurant... take my business elsewhere. I'll ignore this thread and be happier for it. Goodbye.

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I'm not sure how me stating that we all have a responsibility to our fellow diners rather than taking a "sod off, it's none of your business" approach causes you such offence unless you're in the habit of getting offended by people not just accepting that you're right, but if you're going to get yourself so worked up about it then you probably should stop.

P.S. Chainmail is probably unacceptable in any restaurant other than a mediaeval themed venue, as is any other kind of fancy dress. Just so you know.

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Isabelle raises an interesting point though. I would love to see a very hairy transgender cross-dresser wearing a pink gown and tiara walk into a restaurant with a strict jacket-and-tie dress code! Any takers here on OttawaFoodies? It could be a PR nightmare for the place and an interesting human rights case. :-)

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I think a tiara might be pushing it regardless of whose head it's on. Still, it's an interesting thought - I suppose it would probably depend on the overall image. If it was a genuine attempt to pass as a woman then it would probably sit a little easier with them than if it were a screaming drag queen, but it's not a scenario I'd like to have to deal with as the maitre d'.

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Some dress codes may in fact be archaic especially many restos don't require men to wear jackets anymore but, as Johnny English mentioned, many of them have the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. So I guess Gwen Jacobs would have a hard time getting into a restaurant after all unless she is wearing a shirt.

Last year while visiting Toronto I went for lunch at a restaurant participating in Summerlicous. While I was waiting for my appetizer to arrive a young lady sat down at the next table wearing shorts so short her butt was hanging out the bottom of her shorts. Sorry but I am eating lunch and this is too much information. Maybe I am getting old but I don't care how nice/not nice your figure is I hope that other restaurant goers at least have the basic body parts are covered up...

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I think shirt and shoes is health code

Someone print this on a OF T-shirt for FF.

"I would love to see a very hairy transgender cross-dresser wearing a pink gown and tiara" - Fresh Foodie '12

lol

I went to lunch the other day at Back Lane Cafe (god it was horrible, WHY is it still open?). looked down at this fellows bare foot. He wasn't wearing a shoe even. Crazy! I wondered if there was any wankers about judging him. Poor fellow, t-shirt, and slacks, with no shoe on one foot. Who let him in the door?

I was just waiting for the rush of wankers to drag him out by his ear. Sadly for him it didn't happen, and he had to eat the food. My guess is he took it literally when someone told him break a leg.

Somewhere, some fool is sitting thinking.. yes.. those damn toes.. never in a restaurant. never.. black ties for all..

I'm sure he ruined the dining experience for everyone by breaking his leg, and being in a cast. tch tch.

Hmmm... my husband swears these are what I wore to milk Krusty's cow last fall... you don't happen to remember do you Krusty???

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The guy wearing those creepy running shoes/socks/whatever the hell those things are called that show all the toes, made my patio experience less than enjoyable. But then, it was Whispers and the food and service sucked anyway, so I won't hang it all on runner-dude.

If I had a resto and anybody showed up in sneakers, flip flops, hiking boots, sweats, jeans, tees, ballcaps, muscle shirts, hoodies, women dressed not like women (sorry Isabelle, you lose), men not dressed like men, and any of the myriad other permutations I've witnessed in this city, let's just say the staff would be given instruction to not make this the sartorial offenders' most pleasant dining experience they ever had.

At what point exactly in the history of western civilization did we decide that anything goes as long as a dollar bill is being exchanged? If I can't tell a guy who's dressed like a walking Nike or Hawaiian Tropic ad 'take your business elsewhere, perhaps the Taco parking lot down the street', then sorry to break it to you all, but the terrorists have won.

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Oh cripes I can't believe someone brought the terrorists into this!

You had me right up to that point Bacon I.V.. Holy freaking heck did I just witness that!!!

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p.s. when I finally open my establishment, it will have a sign on the front door "No self-righteous wankers!" and another one by the cash "No service for cell phones"

And if I starve by those rules, so be it.

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zymurgist If you really do put a sign by the cash saying "No service for cell phones" not only will I personally frequent your business regularly but I will coerce all my coworkers, family, friends, neighbours, and anyone who has ever known me to do the same. But without their cell phones of course-;)

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I'll be enjoying a meal free of scruffy oiks at Bacon I.V.'s establishment.

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"At what point exactly in the history of western civilization did we decide that anything goes as long as a dollar bill is being exchanged?"

I'd say probably somewhere near the very genesis of western civilization as described by freedom-loving capitalists and their ilk.

I've actually travelled quite a bit outside your beloved 'western civilization', and rarely have I encountered the kind of slovenly behaviour and dress you've supposedly witnessed in this city. Interestingly, the times I have come across bedraggled riffraff they were called 'Westerners' by the locals.

I am pretty sure I saw those Merrells out at the homestead!

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Johanna: From my view, and in all seriousness, you have exactly pointed out the issue here:

I have also been fortunate to travel at least some of the world, and am regularly impressed by how presenting yourself in a dignified, respectful and polished manner is something that isn't solely or even largely linked to your economic status - its merely expected as the adult thing to do.

Canadian society is wonderfully progressive and has achieved a lot of good things and we have a lot to be collectively proud of. We don't suscribe very much to class-based judgment (in comparison to other societies, that is), and we are a relatively relaxed, informal people. We also, by and large, dress like slobs.

Apparently, when scanning the comments above the reasons for this are myriad: "I want to be comfortable", "Why should I have to kowtow to 'THE MAN'?", "I'm the customer, it's my money", "I can do what ever I want, it's my right", "Nobody can judge me", etc, etc, etc. Puke.

Personally, I see it as a result of living in a relatively affluent society that (recently) places a lot of value on individualism - it is considered a grave injustice to expect someone to subjugate their own desires (i.e.: dressing however one wants) in order to participate in society (i.e.: a dress code or in the least an expectation of a polished appearance). In other, less fortunate parts of the world, people still relish the opportunity to look their best when the opportunity presents itself.

I'm not even willing to say that this is unequivocally a good or bad thing; it's my mere subjective observation.

And finally I do not accept the argument that this is a financial issue...people having much less than us in previous generations could always find a way to look as sharp as a razor...

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Without trying to put yet an opinion on any side, Tracinho and a few others' comments has me wondering one question, which I can't answer: why are people elsewhere/"everywhere" deciding it's a good thing to dress their best when eating out (usually at somewhere considered 'nice' by whatever standards)? Where does it come from? Is it a relic of colonialism, or something decided locally? Some widespread cultural bits can occur spontaneously, or can come from a common point somewhat past in time that isn't obvious at first glance. And this attitude on sartorial choices is quite interesting. (Similarly, how and why were hats generally abandoned in european-based societies over the last 50 years.) Perhaps some social research has already been done on this.

I think it goes a little further than our little debates. :)

(And for what it's worth... the Johnny English/Isabelle exchange to my eye quite possibly suffered from some linguistic and cultural difference leading to some misunderstanding, yes. Speaking as a bilingual person as well.)

Wow! This is getting to be pretty heady stuff-;)

All I know is that I don't eat out very often and when I do that's my night out. So I like to dress up a little bit - more along the lines of dressy casual but not necessarily a floor length evening gown although I do own one. I have even been known to wear my track pants and hoodie to my favourite pizza place but I am usually there to pick up take-out.

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Niall,

Interesting perspective and long past the divide was greater between those who had and had not. If you were wealthy and having a feast you of course would dress for the occasion as it is a celebration. If you were a peasant invited to such an occasion you would dress as best you could out of respect. In today's society we are about instant gratification and eating is a means to rush off to the next thing on our over busy todo list for the day. Since food comes so easy, out of a package for most people who are disconnected from the source of their diet, there is little respect for the eating experience.

I could/would be considered the worst dresser here but I think there is validity to dressing respectfully for a meal out.

Krusty

Well I lived in Europe for 3 years in 2 different countries and I did not experience this universal need to dress up to go out to eat. Perhaps you are just eating at the same types of places there as you do here? Places where people dress up to eat out. My money is on that.

@Johnny, first two rounds on me!

@Tracinho, agreed with much, esp the last paragraph and your analysis of the myriad mostly lazy and sloppy attitudes which lead to slovenliness.

@Johanna, I think you're being unfair to Westerners in those foreign countries, many of whom are probably tourists who we wouldn't expect to dine in their Sunday best while on vacation, esp if they're hippies or bohemians travelling for the second or third world experience.

Anyway, my mention of western civ was a criticism of how we've sunk in the area of manners, and not framed as a defense of ours vs. other cultures (I could care less how Cairenes act or dress when they go for a night out at TGI Fridays). Still, your post, especially the reference to my 'beloved western civ' betrays a resentment of said civ on your part, or did I misinterpret something?

Completely unrelated to food, but men stopped wearing hats when they started driving to work, because the headroom in a car is much less than on a bus, streetcar or train.

@blubarry. Been to Texas lately? =D

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Don't Texans ride their horses to work ?

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Genuine sign outside a restaurant in Texas:

-------------------->

Interesting, blubarry. I once read that the hatless trend started with JFK, the first bare-headed President.

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"If I had a resto and anybody showed up in sneakers, flip flops, hiking boots, sweats, jeans, tees, ballcaps, muscle shirts, hoodies, women dressed not like women (sorry Isabelle, you lose), men not dressed like men, and any of the myriad other permutations I've witnessed in this city, let's just say the staff would be given instruction to not make this the sartorial offenders' most pleasant dining experience they ever had."

"I think you're being unfair to Westerners in those foreign countries, many of whom are probably tourists who we wouldn't expect to dine in their Sunday best while on vacation, esp if they're hippies or bohemians travelling for the second or third world experience."

@Bacon I.V. LMFAO... I'll just let the juxtaposition of your two posts speak for itself... LOL!

"Still, your post, especially the reference to my 'beloved western civ' betrays a resentment of said civ on your part, or did I misinterpret something?"

@Bacon I.V. You, misinterpret something? LOL!!!

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Ravi I was in Texas last month and the women's hair was bigger than any cowboy hats I saw. And I only saw those in BBQ joints. :)

Interesting, Johanna. Sooooo.....do I cut some slack to tourists who wish to dine at my classy joint? Perhaps. But they'd be few and far between, and besides I'd expect most to have done their research on Chez Bacon IV, and shown up in decent duds for God's sake. Good sport that I am, I might offer them takeout instead. lol

I'm glad I misinterpreted your post, however. I risked some sleepless nights worrying about a poor fellow foodie living a sad, desperate existence among western rabble hordes. ; )

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Which end of those big BBQ joints do you light?

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I'm getting in on this threat late, but my mom always had a saying, and I think it couldn't be more true.

"You wear your church clothes to church, and your beach clothes to the beach". There was no further argument, and looking back, she's right.

I got that one as a kid when I was like "but mom the other kids go to church in jeans and a t-shirt".

Same goes for a nice restaurant. If its a fine restaurant its only appropriate to wear something better then casual. Period.

It's a completely circular argument. I could list of justifications which I think are valid, but it all boils down to "its the right thing to do".